SC - Currant history (Was Currants vs Zante raisins) Long

[Par Leijonhufvud]

Akim wrote:

>They were immensely popular as fresh berries
>and garden ornamentals throughout the Tudor period,
>though large scale growing did not catch on until the
>time of James I, not several centuries later as you and
>Ras seem to be convinced.

Huh? I can´t recall having said anything about when I thought large-scale
growing of currants caught on, and I´m well aware they were grown in England
from the 16th century onwards. If they were cultivated there earlier, I
certainly would like to know - what is your source?

>Oh, no, no....   the earlier terms were certainly dried grapes.

I think I can identify the passage from your earlier post that I (and
probably Ras as well) seem to have misunderstood: " This name was derived
(in English) when Ribes plants were introduced into England or perhaps a
little earlier (say mid 15th) as the English became familiar with Ribes
berries on the continent.   The separate terms "raysons of the sun" or "Zant
raisins" probably preceded
the term "curran" in the English language."

To me this looks as if you are saying that the term "currans" (for Ribes
berries) was used from the mid 15th century onwards, and that "raysons of
the sun" and "Zant raisins" were even earlier than that. If I misunderstood
you, I´m truly sorry.

>All I was saying was that the term "currans"  in English from
>Tudor times on means Ribes genus berries except as confused
>by uneducated people of the times.

And I think this - and the meaning of the term "raisins of the sun" is the
main point we disagree on. Prospect Books has a new glossary online:
http://www.kal69.dial.pipex.com/gloss.htm#glossary )

compiled by Alan Davidson and others from the works of Robert May, Sir
Kenelm Digby, John Evelyn, Richard Bradley, Hannah Glasse, William Ellis and
John Notts - certainly not uneducated people of their time - and these are
the entries for currants and raisins of the sun:

RAISINS OF THE SUN, a frequent ingredient: sun-dried raisins. (Robert May,
1660/1685)

RAISINS, reasons: sun-dried grapes, sometimes called raisins-of-the-sun to
distinguish them from raisins of Corinth, i.e. currants. In Receipt 105,
they are called ‘malago raisins’. (John Evelyn, Cook, C17)

RAISINS OF THE SUN meant simply sun-dried grapes. The phrase had been in use
from mediaeval times to distinguish true raisins from raisins of Corinth,
which were currants (and also sun- dried). (Glasse, 1747)

CORINTHS: currants, also called raisins of Corinth. (John Evelyn, Cook, C17)

CURRANS, corrance: currants. (John Evelyn, Cook, C17)

CURRANS, an old spelling of currants.(Glasse, 1747)

>I was using Zante as an
>identifier because it, as you say, is the major producing area for the
imported fruit to America

I didn´t say that, actually. I said Zante is the type most commonly grown in
America and Australia these days. I´m not sure if you import them at all. -
Thank you for pointing out the Gerard source for Zant(e) raisins, I´ll have
to look it up.

>To further complicate the nomenclature, in Italy, the small Ribes fruits
>have been called "uvetta", meaning "small grape"."

And in Swedish (correct me if I´m wrong, Pär) they are called "vinbär",
which Icelanders always take to mean "v?nber", i.e. grapes (same as Old
English winberiga).


>Neither man was the expert in botony
(as far as the science of botony is concerned) that you
seem to have the impression they might have been.

I don´t have any impression of the sort, and I wasn´t quoting either of them
as an expert on botany. I was quoting John Ayto, who is tracing the history
of the term currant. As you say yourself, "the books themselves do contain
solid intrensic values concerning the state of knowledge at the specific
time" and that is why Ayto, as a lexicographer, quotes them, not because he
places any value on their botanical content.

>I don't think that my efforts in research in this subject
are any less exhaustive than yours

I´m absolutely sure they are not, since I haven´t done any research to speak
of, I´m just quoting from sources I have at hand. Too lazy for serious
research, which is why I quit my history studies at university and began to
cook instead.

>I think we have approached
>the same subject from different disciplines and are
>having trouble meshing in the middle.   I don't think we need
>to bore the others on the list with a cuskeynole level
>debate on currants.

Y´know, I just missed the cuskynole debate but I was under the impression
people remembered it rather fondly ... But you are correct, let´s not get
into a debate neither of us has the time or energy for at present. I´ll just
stick to writing about interesting Icelandic museums and such. Or
earthquakes, which we have been getting quite a lot of in these last few
days (I´m quite unhurt, in case anyone wants to know).

Nanna