[Fwd: SC - Columbus' chilies]

Thu Jun 22 05:08:52 PDT 2000

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All,
Paul weighed in on the Chinese aspect of this discussion as seen in the
message below...thought you'd find it interesting!

Kiri

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Message-ID: <001d01bfdb3e$21577be0$237e0518 at sttln1.wa.home.com>
From: "Paul D. Buell" <tbuell2 at home.com>
To: "Elaine Koogler" <ekoogler at chesapeake.net>
Cc: "Gene Anderson" <gene at ucrac1.ucr.edu>
References: <E163A98BC3D0D2119CAA0000832180C204C381A8 at exchange6.health.state.ok.us> <3950DF16.19D93B79 at chesapeake.net>
Subject: Re: SC - Columbus' chilies
Date: Tue, 20 Jun 2000 22:04:07 -0700
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Good discussion of this issue, very sophisticated. "Grains-of-paradise" =
(shu-sha) are unquestionably not regular cardamom in the Yin-shan =
cheng-yao (1330), the official Mongol court dietary for China, but some =
other Amomum (but not Tsao-ko or anything resembling it). Precisely =
which we are still debating (my species identification in the book is =
based on what was meant by the Chinese term in the standard medicinals =
and spices trade of later times, but we don't know for sure). The coming =
of the species described in the discussion, however, certainly predate =
the Portuguese. There was an active Mongol sea trade from China to Iran =
and from Iran, through Iranian and Arab ships, beyond, including too =
Africa. Chinese pottery from the era is found scattered all up and down =
the coast. The Chinese of the time also knew a lot about Africa, which =
suggests good contacts. All of which is not to denigrate the later role =
of the Portuguese and substitutions were always taking place so that the =
same Chinese name could designate different herbs or spices over time. =
But one thing for sure, what we call "grains-of-paradise" was clearly =
distinct from regular cardamom and the large smoky kinds called Tsao-ko =
in the early Chinese texts. This is some other spice. We have assumed it =
is exactly what the name implies until evidence has accumulated to prove =
otherwise. However, my colleague Anderson points out that ascribed =
properties of this "grains-of-paradise" do appear to be different from =
those ascribed to it later. I will ask him to comment.

So who knows, I suspect that you are all right.

Elaine: go ahead and post this if you want.

Paul D. Buell

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<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Good discussion of this issue, very sophisticated.=20
"Grains-of-paradise" (shu-sha) are unquestionably not regular cardamom =
in the=20
Yin-shan cheng-yao (1330), the official Mongol court dietary for China, =
but some=20
other Amomum (but not Tsao-ko or anything resembling it). Precisely =
which we are=20
still debating (my species identification in the book is based on what =
was meant=20
by the Chinese term in the standard medicinals and spices trade of later =
times,=20
but we don't know for sure). The coming of the species described in the=20
discussion, however, certainly predate the Portuguese. There was an =
active=20
Mongol sea trade from China to Iran and from Iran, through Iranian and =
Arab=20
ships, beyond, including too Africa. Chinese pottery from the era is =
found=20
scattered all up and down the coast. The Chinese of the time also knew a =
lot=20
about Africa, which suggests good contacts. All of which is not to =
denigrate the=20
later role of the Portuguese and substitutions were always taking place =
so that=20
the same Chinese name could designate different herbs or spices over =
time. But=20
one thing for sure, what we call "grains-of-paradise" was clearly =
distinct from=20
regular cardamom and the large smoky kinds called Tsao-ko in the early =
Chinese=20
texts. This is some other spice. We have assumed it is exactly what the =
name=20
implies until evidence has accumulated to prove otherwise. However, my =
colleague=20
Anderson points out that ascribed properties of this =
"grains-of-paradise" do=20
appear to be different from those ascribed to it later. I will ask him =
to=20
comment.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>So who knows, I suspect that you are all =
right.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Elaine: go ahead and post this if you =
want.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3D2>Paul D. Buell</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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