SC - Carbonade / Holloptrida translation / German Elizabethan???

[Philip & Susan Troy]

Thomas Gloning wrote:
> 
> Gwen,
> << >Welsch = 'italian' (in rare cases for other romance cultures too,
> French, Spanish)<  sounds crazy to me ... ;-) >>
> 
> The word is derived from "Wahle" which is the old German word for the
> romance people, esp. for the French and Italian; around 1600, the
> "Wahlen" and "welsch"/"wälsch" refer mostly to the Italian. A fact of
> language ...

Interesting! I'd understood that the Germanic Angle and Saxon invaders
of southern Britain referred to the Cymric tribal groups they displaced
as die Welsche (i.e. the foreigners, thass a good'un, eh?) later to
settle on the peninsula now known as Wales. Of course this meaning may
have changed. 

> Adamantius,
> Rumpolt's use of "carbonade" is very close to the description you gave:
> it is used for a type of dish with a certain preparation: thin meat
> (different kinds), roasted quickly, certain sauces. The use for a kind
> of (raw) meat, I mentioned from Hopf, is later, it seems. Thanks for
> your explanation.

Well, it makes a fair amount of sense. Markham is writing at the most 30
years after Rumpolt, if I have the chronology correct, and it may have
taken that long for a supposedly French dish to have reached Germany and
England. It seems reasonable, though, that a cut of meat suitable for
broiling might become known by its standard cooking method, as with
chickens, clams, and a variety of other foods today, which might explain
why the term might be applied to a particular piece of raw meat.

I know Rumpolt uses a term that resembles "Karwonado", but we should
probably try to find a way to distinguish this type of dish from the
French/Flemish ragout now known as Carbonade de Flamande, IIRC. As I
recall this is a stew, usually of beef braised with caramelized onions,
with enough beer to cover. The onions are finely cut and disintegrate in
the cooking providing color and thickening for the sauce. I have no
evidence as to its periodicity, though someone else may... .  

Adamantius
- -- 
Phil & Susan Troy

troy at asan.com