SC - Re: Currants vs Zante raisins (Long reply)

[Nanna Rognvaldardottir]

Akim writes:

>I disagree.  From my point of view, currans or currants are
specifically the English name of berries of the Ribes species,
red, white and black.  This name was derived (in English)
when Ribes plants were introduced into England or perhaps
a little earlier (say mid 15th) as the English became familiar
with Ribes berries on the continent.   The separate terms
"raysons of the sun" or "Zant raisins" probably preceded
the term "curran" in the English language.

Maybe I´m misunderstanding something (my command of English isn´t always as
good as I´d like to think it is) but are you saying that currans and other
forms of the term originally meant berries of the Ribes genus? And that any
pre-16th century reference to curran(t)s is to be interpreted as meaning
these berries, never dried grapes?

Let´s for the sake of argument suppose you are correct and that the berries
are the original currants. In that case, where did the currant name come
from? "derived (in English) when Ribes plants were introduced into England
or perhaps a little earlier", you say but derived from what? Every
dictionary and ethymological source I´ve consulted links currant directly
with Corinth - so where is the link between Corinth and these Northern
European berries? They have very dissimilar names in other languages (for
instance ribsb¿r/solb¿r, rips, vinbär, Johannisbeere, groseilles, cassis,
ribes, etc.

I´m not sure how old the term Zante currants/raisins is but I haven´t seen
it in any old sources yet. And Zante is only one of several types of
currants available - the best quality are generally thought to be Vostizza
currants, small, black and sweet. Zante is probably around medium quality. I
think they are mostly grown in the US and Australia now but I may be wrong
there - the only Zante currants I ever see are American.

>In terms of accurate botany, Lyte is best largely ignored
as a source.  Lyte didn't "realize" anything.

Oh, I don´t know. Myself, I´m not even an amateur gardener but even I
realized, just by looking at redcurrants and gooseberries that they were
related, long before anyone told me they both belonged to the Ribes genus,
so who knows what Mr. Lyte might have realized.

>"Currans" seems to be totally an English
>usage. It is more consistant that the popular belief was that
>Zant raisins were dried currants (Ribes), not that currants
>(Ribes) were the fresh version of what had been for some time
>marketed dried from Zante.

I can´t recall having seen any reference to Zante raisins or anything like
that in pre-16 century sources - can you cite a specific source? I agree
that currans/currants or similar terms, meaning berries of the Ribes genus,
is totally an English usage. But that doesn´t hold true for the dried grapes
(Icel. k?rennur/kórinnur, Danish korender, Swedish korinter, German
Korinthen, for instance).

>I think Karen Hess is wrong or confused.

But in the recipe she is commenting on, currants are clearly the dried
fruit, not fresh berries.

>"Raysons of the sun"
>was a term for dried Corinth grapes or popularly "currants" in
>English.  The term for dried grapes was and is unabiguious
and another term was not necessary or useful.

It is unambiguous now but was it always so? After all, English got the term
"raisin" from French, where it meant (and means) grape - a raisin is "raisin
sec" in French. Both terms (grape and raisin) entered the English language
at about the same time (13th century), replacing the Old English term
winberiga (wine berry; the closely related term v?nber is still used in
Icelandic). So I wouldn´t be surprised if there had indeed been some
confusion for quite some time.

Just to add even more to the confusion, there are also Corinthian raisins,
which have nothing to do with (dried) currants - they are sultanas, fairly
large, dark golden, and very sweet and tasty.

Nanna