SC - Turkish/American foodstuffs.

[Alderton, Philippa]

Since I'm merely a beginner at this sort of thing, I asked an expert in
foods served in our period in the Turkic areas for verification for the
usage of what are commonly known as New World Foods, for the usage of corn,
tomatoes and hot peppers in period Asian-but-not-European Turkic recipes.
This is his response. First section is my direct question, with your
responses, edited for brevity.

################################

Paul, may I ask you to refute or confirm his/her assertions, since you know
more about Turkic cooking than I do?

################################

From: JVButlerJr at aol.com <JVButlerJr at aol.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Date: Tuesday, May 09, 2000 8:21 PM
Subject: Re: SC - You think it's not period??


>In a message dated 5/9/00 3:00:47 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>JGedney at dictaphone.com writes:
>
>> It is one thing to say that they were eaten at some banquets in Imperial
>>  China, and one incident of them being sent to Asia Minor, but another to
>>  say that that makes them a standard item of fare in a Feast in a
>>  Eurocentric Society, celebrating Eurocentric events and activities.
>
#################################

Suleymon responds:

>    Oh goody... another chance for me to call "foul" on Western
Eurocentrism.
>
>    The documentation she mentioned includes several period recipes from
>Ottoman Turkey, all calling for tomatoes or tomato sauce.  (You remember
the
>Ottomans, don't you?  At one point they ruled half of Europe, in case no
one
>remembers.)
>
>    Folks, lets try to remember that Europe is more than England, Spain,
>France, Germany, and Italy.  Or, as they say here in Trimaris, "Just 'cause
>it ain't Celt don't mean its not period."
>
>    The documentation for the mummy/tomato seeds is a Discovery magazine,
>published this year (and no, I don't remember the issue number... mostly
what
>I remember after she showed it to me was thinking "son of a gun").  As for
>"trading in bulk", apparently there was enough bulk traded to have an
>elephant appear on a wall of Inca heiroglypics.  And mummies in Mexico
>wearing Chinese-style jade jewelry.
>
>    Conclusive proof?  Maybe not.  Overwhelming, even?  Maybe not.
>Convincing?  Yes.  Very.
>
>    So be unconvinced if you insist.  But while you're at it, try to be
less
>smug about it.
>
>    Suleyman

######################################
( Paul's response)

Coming in the middle of this but...

1. The way we tell what was or was not common fare is by studying cookbooks
and the like (ceremony books, etc.). There are lots of them, particularly
from the Osmanli era. My colleague Charles Perry is currently translating
one, in this case, a Turkish expansion of an earlier Arabic work. Manuscript
is from the former imperial palace. Great stuff. Charles is THE expert on
this.

2. Tomatoes as we know them come into being from a crossing of deadly
nightshade and plants from the new world, the original, small tomatoes. Any
tomato sauce in Osmanli cuisine goes back to perhaps to the 18th century.
Absolutely no evidence I have ever heard of pre-Columbia tomatoes and, in
any case, they would have been nothing special to write home to mother
about.

3. They are finding lots of strange things in mummies these days. The jury
is still out on all of this. My understanding is that the science is fine.
We have to explain these things. However, never heard of tomato seeds, at
least, not in the archaeological literate, and see my comments above. Tomato
seeds from an early date certainly does not mean tomato sauce. If any made
their way to Egypt they would have been puny and exotic. Discovery Magazine
is not the best source.

4. The whole field of early contacts across the Atlantic is very disputed. I
have a friend who claims he sees a nuclear submarine on an ancient rock
carving from eastern Washington!!

So, were the ancient Egyptians dishing out the tomato sauce? Doubt it, and
if so all other notice of this has vanished. Did the Osmanli get it from
Egypt. Doubt it. Try Italy.

Paul D. Buell

#################################

So, Suleymon, may we see your documentation, please? I'd really like to
know......

Phlip

Nolo disputare, volo somniare et contendere, et iterum somniare.

phlip at morganco.net

Philippa Farrour
Caer Frig
Southeastern Ohio

"All things are poisons.  It is simply the dose that distinguishes between a
poison and a remedy." -Paracelsus

"Oats -- a grain which in England sustains the horses, and in
Scotland, the men." -- Johnson

"It was pleasant to me to find that 'oats,' the 'food of horses,' were
so much used as the food of the people in Johnson's own town." --
Boswell

"And where will you find such horses, and such men?" -- Anonymous