SC - > So long as we are making assumptions . . . . . . .

[Nicholas Sasso]

<<<<. . . .SNIP . . . I understand that there may be no scholastic 
foundation on which we
may build our assumptions, and any assumptions we do
make are therefore muddy at best.  However, The fact
that a peasants life (and diet) did not make it into
the journals of the day does not mean that they did
not enjoy at least some of the same, simple pleasures
as the nobility.  Pepper may have been one of them.
Balthazar of Blackmoor>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Fortunes were likely not made strictly selling to nobility, but probably not
in large part to impoverished labourers either.  As time went on, Guilds, 
merchant classes, and a "middle class" were developing expendable incomes 
and possibly investment capital in Western Europe.  They grew more
economically strong and independent (hence the waning of feudalism . . . or as 
a result of it . . . one way or the other) and made more purchases of luxury 
type items.  I would not refute that at all.

Absence of written evidence is certainly not positive proof of absence.
You are very well spoken on this point, and I must heartily agree,
Much of my vehement responses were in reference to 'definitive'
statements and seemingly weak generalizations on this point based not
on examinable evidence, but inference and what makes 'sense' to the person.
That is sloppy argument and lacks reviewable credibility in adding knowledge
on this topic.  I do not question any person's 'sense' or logic in this, only the
value of that same in making argument and refutation of what has some
sort of reviewable and critiquable support.  One is welcome to one's opinion,
and I fight to maintain that right . . . . I also fight to maintain that opinion is
not in itself sufficient argument or counter.  Even Cariadoc, whose opinions
are often documented as fact, is quick to corroborate his statements with 
supporting evidence and opinions of other scholars.

My personal stance is that I don't know for certain which 'peasants'
where had access to 'luxury spices' from east.  I do have decent (credible)
info of what more-local spices were used (e.g. mustard, grains).  One 
can make very few definitive statements on what the non-noble/
non-gentry used in most places in most time periods up to the middle 
1500's at least.  We have descriptions of explorers and expeditions,
but that's not the same thing.  I will always seek the core documentation
that leads to assertions, otherwise anyone can make any assertion about anything
and expect to believed simply because it was said.  (mayhaps the core of this thread
has NOT been spice at all, but the process of developing and delivering a 
cohesive, thoughtful and objective case that is corroborated and defensible, yet
not so inflexible as to prohibit learning oneself . . . . . . at least that is what I
am leaning.)

My position was stated in my last post, and I tried to make the possibility
of my incorrectness very clear as I truly am viewing this as a working 
hypothesis for me.  When I find stronger premise than what I have, I will
again amend it to include that information.  What has been presented so
far in this discussion has (while well presented and had research behind it)
lacked, in my own limited estimation, the substance and strength to change
my current hypothesis that Indian spice was not a common item to the serfs, 
indentured servants, non-landowning, work-to-survive classes.  Did Charlie
find the Golden Ticket? Yes.  It doesn't make for substantive empirical or 
scholarly support on this issue, though.

What I do appreciate from this thread is the thrust to challenge my personal 
viewpoint and motivation to review again the manuscripts used for discussion.
I have dusted off a couple of volumes in my library and found a couple new
nuggets of information that may one day prove useful to me.  I also have been 
challenged to construct a cohesive stance and discuss, evaluate
and respond to the contrary position.  That is exhilarating and developmental 
for me.  Too often I am able to make my views known and be accepted at face 
value or (more likely) dismissed without challenge for the foundational concepts.
Not here, but elsewhere in this hobby in the work a day world.  Thank all of you for 
the experience so far.

niccolo difrancesco

PS    anything good to unhinge my not terribly ensconce argument to date is still
 gratefully encouraged  :o)  Likewise, tell me if I am being a clueless goober in the 
face of strong evidence already presented that I passed on.