SC - Historical varieties

[grizly at mindspring.com]

Thanks for these dictionary offerings!  They are welcome additions to the discussion and my list of information on this condiment.

sca-cooks at ansteorra.org wrote:
<<< And another almost-smoking reference, from Dictionnaire de L'Académie française, 1st Edition, 1694:
<<<SNIP>>>
Verjuice. masculine noun. The juice, the juice that one extracts from
certain grapes, when they are still entirely green. (my translation)

It's the presence of the word 'certains', which would not otherwise 
be necessary, that suggests that particular varieties were destined 
for verjuice. >>>>>>>>>

This actually suggests to me something different, that not all grape varieties were used for verjuice.  It is a big logical step further to the 'smoking' of delimiting varieties to verjuice only.


<<<< In the 1798 edition of the same dictionary we have another almost-smoking reference for verjuice grapes:
<SNIP the french> Verjuice, a certain species of grape that is not good for making wine, of which the grapes are big and long, and which have very tough skin. (my translation)

Again, it's the presence of the otherwise unnecessary "certaine 
espèce de" which suggests a particular variety or varieties.>>>>

This is getting warmer.  I think this gives us a step in the right direction.  I am curious how far we can generalize the use of the term for one given variety, ostensibly in France, to the greater production and industry of verjus grapes in all of Europe


<<< On the other hand, the same 1798 dictionary has dropped the 
'certains' from its definition for verjuice proper. 
<SNIP>
Verjuice. noun masculine. The acid juice that one extracts from 
grapes that aren't ripe. (my translation) 

The absence of the qualification here highlights its presence in 
the other two references from the same dictionary. >>>

Again, worth serious consideration, and in need of perspective for generalization.  Given that dictionaries are commonly written be several authors, it is possible that different people actually wrote or edited these entries.  Sure, they are side by side in the book, and one need to keep perspective before running ahead with a full head of steam.  Also in light of being almost 200 years past the time frame we focus on (some consider it even longer, 350+).  Two plus/or minus centuries seems significant for defining something like this.

<<<An aside: In modern French wine harvest talk, a 'verjus' is a grape
that looks ripe but isn't.  The people harvesting should detect
these and avoid picking them, which isn't always easy when they 
are paid by the quantity they pick.  As a result a sorter has to 
look the grapes over later and reject the 'verjus' since they'd 
lower the quality of the wine.  During the harvest it seems that 
'verjus' are often thrown at other harvesters during horseplay.>>>>

Modern usage that shows a significant drift in the 200 years since the dictionary references you quoted.  Seems to demonstrate the need for professional, healthy skepticism in these items before jumping on the wagon to Shrewsbury with them.  I am not simply nay-saying what you are presenting, though it looks that way.  I am seriously considering, and seeing some logical gaps from the premises through to the conclusions.  The references seem able to go any of a number of directions, but don't prove 'smoking guns' yet.  A large body of inferencial evidence does get farther down the road than guesswork, but doesn't 'smoke' yet.  the premises of the entries are fine, it's the conclusions drawn on them that are still looking tenuous to me.  (OH!  Please don't feel compelled or assuage my skepticism . . . this is a pleasant excercise for me, and I don't expect you to convince me when all is said and done.  I'll be re-reading all of this over and again along with whatever I find to s!
!
ee if I get an argument constructed one way or another that has some face validity and avoids some of the tricky fallacies of construction that I often run into headlong . . . if p then q)


<<<< Second aside:  The finest Dijon mustard is apparently made using 
verjuice, not vinegar.  This usage is said to have begun in 1752.>>>>

GOTTA, try this!


niccolo difrancesco