SC - Re: baklava

Mon Apr 2 04:14:25 PDT 2001

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0BBB9.E533E060
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

  -----Original Message-----
  From: owner-sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
[mailto:owner-sca-cooks at ansteorra.org]On Behalf Of Mark Calderwood
  Sent: Monday, April 02, 2001 6:28 PM
  To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
  Subject: SC - Re: baklava

    Hrolf Hrolfsen apparently wrote, about Baklava:

      "The recipe is easy.

  The recipe quoted by Hrolf is from p218, The Complete Middle Eastern
Cookbook, by Tess Mallos (Landsdowne 1979), and called baklawa be'aj. No
date or references are given.

  Claudia Roden, in A New Book of Middle Eastern Food, (Penguin 1970) states
that "the pastries (baklava and kadayif) are not mentioned in medieval
Persian or Arabic works, and seem to have made their appearance in the
region during the time of the Ottoman empire" and lists as references
al-Baghdadi, the Kitab al-Tabikh (1239), the Kitab al-Wusla tec (before
1261). Roden also recounts the tale "The Poisoned dish of Baklawa" from the
Tales of Nasr-ed Din Khoja (translated from the Turkish by Henry D Barnham
1923), which again gives no specific recipe, and would seem to be used as an
equivalent term by the translator.

  Andrew Daly notes in Siren Feasts: A History of Food and Gastronomy in
Greece (Routledge 1996) that although all the ingredients are common
throughout Greece and the Middle East, there does not seem to have been a
dish by this name known in Greece before the modern era.

  Two websites on the history of baklava:

  http://www.baklavachef.com/history.html
  The traditional history, which indicates it is period, and not just
Turkish.
  I just don't know. Note the last paragraph about what is and isn't
baklava.

  http://www.atamanhotel.com/kitchen/baklava.html
  Another traditional history, with some interesting info.

  I don't know how accurate they are, but make interesting reading
nontheless. I'm inclined to think there was something referred to as
baklava, but that is not what we would know by the same name.

    Hrolf's assertion:
     " I can say that this is one of the areas of the world where methods do
not
    change (with the exception of the tomato / tamarind swap and the ready
    adoption of chilli - which was done in period) over the centuries."

  is *arrant rubbish*. Please pardon my bluntness, but I get *very* sick of
people making this statement about Middle Eastern culture, despite the fact
that it has been proven wrong again and again. The culture (including
clothing, cooking, etc) was no more static than Western Europe was in the
same period, as even a moderate amount of research will show. I too would be
very interested in Hrolf's evidence to support this statement.

  Giles de Laval
  Lochac

- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0BBB9.E533E060
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1" =
http-equiv=3DContent-Type>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 5.00.2614.3500" name=3DGENERATOR></HEAD>
<BODY>
<DIV> </DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE=20
style=3D"BORDER-LEFT: #0000ff 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-LEFT: =
5px">
  <DIV align=3Dleft class=3DOutlookMessageHeader dir=3Dltr><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
  size=3D2>-----Original Message-----<BR><B>From:</B>=20
  owner-sca-cooks at ansteorra.org =
[mailto:owner-sca-cooks at ansteorra.org]<B>On=20
  Behalf Of </B>Mark Calderwood<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, April 02, 2001 =
6:28=20
  PM<BR><B>To:</B> sca-cooks at ansteorra.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> SC - Re:=20
  baklava<BR><BR></DIV></FONT>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">Hrolf Hrolfsen apparently wrote, about=20
    Baklava:<BR>
    <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">"The recipe is easy. =20
  </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The recipe quoted by Hrolf is from p218, =
<U>The=20
  Complete Middle Eastern Cookbook</U>, by Tess Mallos (Landsdowne =
1979), and=20
  called baklawa be'aj. No date or references are given.<BR><BR>Claudia =
Roden,=20
  in <U>A New Book of Middle Eastern Food</U>, (Penguin 1970) states =
that "the=20
  pastries (baklava and kadayif) are not mentioned in medieval Persian =
or Arabic=20
  works, and seem to have made their appearance in the region during the =
time of=20
  the Ottoman empire" and lists as references al-Baghdadi, the Kitab =
al-Tabikh=20
  (1239), the Kitab al-Wusla tec (before 1261). Roden also recounts the =
tale=20
  "The Poisoned dish of Baklawa" from the Tales of Nasr-ed Din Khoja =
(translated=20
  from the Turkish by Henry D Barnham 1923), which again gives no =
specific=20
  recipe, and would seem to be used as an equivalent term by the=20
  translator.  <BR><BR>Andrew Daly notes in <U>Siren Feasts: A =
History of=20
  Food and Gastronomy in Greece</U> (Routledge 1996) that although all =
the=20
  ingredients are common throughout Greece and the Middle East, there =
does not=20
  seem to have been a dish by this name known in Greece before the =
modern=20
  era.<BR><BR>Two websites on the history of baklava:<BR><BR><FONT=20
  color=3D#0000ff><U><A href=3D"http://www.baklavachef.com/history.html" =

eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.baklavachef.com/history.</A><A=20
 href=3D"http://www.baklavachef.com/history.html"=20
 eudora=3D"autourl">html </A>The traditional history, =
which=20
 indicates it is period, and not just Turkish. I just don't know. =
Note the=20
 last paragraph about what is and isn't baklava. <FONT=20
 color=3D#0000ff><A =
href=3D"http://www.atamanhotel.com/kitchen/baklava.html"=20
 eudora=3D"autourl">http://www.atamanhotel.com/kitchen/baklava.</A><A=20
 href=3D"http://www.atamanhotel.com/kitchen/baklava.html"=20
 eudora=3D"autourl">html </A>Another traditional history, =
with some=20
 interesting info. I don't know how accurate they are, but make=20
 interesting reading nontheless. I'm inclined to think there was =
something=20
 referred to as baklava, but that is not what we would know by the same =

  name.<BR><BR>
  <BLOCKQUOTE cite type=3D"cite">Hrolf's assertion:<BR> " I can say =
that=20
    this is one of the areas of the world where methods do not<BR>change =
(with=20
    the exception of the tomato / tamarind swap and the =
ready<BR>adoption of=20
    chilli - which was done in period) over the =
centuries."</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>is=20
  *arrant rubbish*. Please pardon my bluntness, but I get *very* sick of =
people=20
  making this statement about Middle Eastern culture, despite the fact =
that it=20
  has been proven wrong again and again. The culture (including =
clothing,=20
  cooking, etc) was no more static than Western Europe was in the same =
period,=20
  as even a moderate amount of research will show. I too would be very=20
  interested in Hrolf's evidence to support this statement.<BR><BR>Giles =
de=20
  Laval<BR>Lochac<BR><BR></BLOCKQUOTE></BODY></HTML>

- ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C0BBB9.E533E060--