SC - raingear [ot & oop]

[Robin Carroll-Mann]

Thorvald here, replying to a somewhat older post:

At 09:37 -0600 2001-01-25, Decker, Terry D. wrote:
> In the case of a Royal household, most of the senior
> servants were of gentle birth

Evidence, please.


> and their staffs were divided between gentles and yeomen.

Yeomen (as a class) have no French equivalent.  Evidence that
the staff did not include ordinary commoners, please.


> Squire of the kitchen would probably equate to "steward of the
> kitchen," whose duty it was to help set the daily menus and oversee the
> expenditures of the kitchen.  The position was normally held by a nobleman

Evidence for the equation of squire of the kitchen and steward of
the kitchen, please.  Evidence for the position of steward of the
kitchen being normally held by a nobleman, please.


> The steward of the house was often a knight with combat command experience.

How is this relevant to a discussion of the kitchen staff?


> Considering that Guillaume Tirel served the House of Valois in the 14th
> Century, first under Phillipe, then under Charles V and Charles VI, during
> the end of the Hundred Years War, his use of arms, and his appointments as
> "Sergeant at Arms" (essentially a Captain of the Guard)

Evidence that sergeant at arms is equivalent to captain of the guard,
please.


> and "squire of the house" may not have been ceremonial.

I did not say that "squire of the mansion" was a position with 
nominal duties.  I have always assumed that it was a full time 
job.


> France was very unsettled, when
> Charles V became regent for his father John II in 1356 and the Dauphin's
> palace was actually invaded by traitors and the Marshals of Champagne and
> Brittany were murdered in his presence (1358).  Much of these problems
> continued until after the Treaty of Bruges in 1375.  Since Tirel's major
> service was with Charles V and his positions were granted primarily during
> that time, it suggests that Tirel was highly skilled, loyal and trusted
> servant.

Pichon and Vicaire are very clear in their belief that he was
loyal, trusted, and valued, particularly by Charles V.

Some quick arithmetic shows that only about 25 of his at least
65 years of service in and around kitchens was spent in the 
service of Charles V (the 25 years includes his service before 
Charles was king).

Taillevent's highest positions were granted under Charles VI.


> The positions suggest that he was ennobled for his services and

We are discussing this very issue, namely whether being high up 
and extremely competent among the kitchen staff to a king is 
sufficient to be rewarded with ennobling.  If there are lots of 
examples of this very thing happening, please give us the evidence 
so that we too may be able to see that this calibre of service was 
commonly rewarded with ennoblement.  Then we can begin to assume
that it could indeed have happened for Taillevent.  But if 
Taillevent would be the only known example of this happening, 
then that line of argument does not hold water.


> that he served in knightly capacities in perilous times.

This is extremely unlikely.  He was a man who had spent most of his 
life in the kitchen, working his way up from the very bottom by his
own skill and drive.  At the date of his first mention as sergeant 
at arms he was somewhere in the region of 55 to 60 years of age.
He is listed as holding the positions of cook _and_ sergeant at 
arms at the same time.  This is not the sort of person you put 
into battle, nor even into command of a military unit with any
kind of challenging duties.

Not one of the letters thanking him for his services mentions 
service in any martial capacity.  "Our beloved cook" is the 
typical sort of praise.


> BTW, a "cupbearer" was an individual who was granted a cup as part of his
> fee to carry in the service of his master.  In the English Royal household,
> cupbearers were often Dukes, major clerics or major landholders.

Originally, yes.  It didn't take long for duties of this kind to 
be ordinarily carried out by servants.  Already by 1182 in Caen at 
Henry II's court we find an ordinary servant preparing to wash the 
hands of the king and princes, and the king and princes apparently 
quite content that this be so.  In rushed a baron and astonished 
everyone by actually claiming his hereditary right to wash their 
hands.  He apparently had to defend his actions in open court the
following day.  (Painter, S. William Marshal. UofT Press. 1971. 
p.47-48)


As I said before, I'd be delighted to learn that Taillevent was
knighted or ennobled for his services in the kitchen.  But we
require more evidence than wishful thinking.


- -- 
All my best,
Thorvald Grimsson / James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net> (PGP user)