[Sca-cooks] re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #19 - 16 msgs
leslie.watson at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
leslie.watson at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
Wed May 9 08:58:21 PDT 2001
I am away from aproximately 2:30 on May 8 until Friday morning May 11. If
your request is of an urgent nature please call my line, 416-954-7455. I
will be checking messages from time to time. thanks
Leslie Watson
HRDC, FA&IT
Facilities Officer
phone: 416-954-7745
Fax: 416-954-7741
Watson.L at hrdc-drhc.gc.ca
---------- Original Text ----------
From: <sca-cooks-request at ansteorra.org>, on 5/9/01 11:30 AM:
To: INET[<sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>]
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Re: easy to grow herbs (Jenne Heise)
2. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (ruadh)
3. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (ruadh)
4. Re: cubebs (Olwen the Odd)
5. Re: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (Laura C. Minnick)
6. Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs) (LrdRas at aol.com)
7. Re: Re: easy to grow herbs (LrdRas at aol.com)
8. OOP OT I'm back (Marian Deborah Rosenberg)
9. Re: cubebs (Chris Stanifer)
10. Re: Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs) (Chris Stanifer)
11. Re: OOP OT I'm back (rcmann4 at earthlink.net)
12. RE: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs)
(upsxdls_osu at us.inter.net)
13. RE: Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs) (Christine Seelye-King)
14. Re: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs) (Jenne
Heise)
15. RE: No Sugar in 10th Century?? (Decker, Terry D.)
16. Re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #18 - (Devra at aol.com)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: easy to grow herbs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:54:17 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> IIRC, Stefan had somehow changed the subject to growing things in pots. While
> container gardening was wisespread throughout the middle ages, we have no
> indication (in fact, the opposite) that container gardening was done in
> anything other than very large containers.
Actually, I believe you may be either limiting your time period or unaware of
some
sources. I would not characterize an 8 to 12 inch pot as 'very large', and
there are
certainly plants pictured in 8-12" pots in illustrations in _The Italian
Renaissance
Interior_.
--
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at mail.browser.net
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
"It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "ruadh" <ruadh at home.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:09:11 -0400
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
and don't forget, it is a SHIPment, in water, and the temp of that water, hi
or low, will add to the temp control in the lower holds, just like a root
cellar. Ru, a Navy man.
> > Correct. BUT.....metal items such as tools were shipped in wrapped oil
soaked
> > rags in water tight barrels. Properly constructed wooden containers and
> > barrels tend to moderate temperature extremes. Containers can (and were)
> > sealed with beeswax and pitch to make them moisture prooof.
>
--__--__--
Message: 3
From: "ruadh" <ruadh at home.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:19:18 -0400
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
could the scribe have make their own changes due to personal preferences ??
and where people used to *that much* of a powder ? like Cajun, I can't get
near the stuff. Others say the "developed" a taste for it. but, (e.g. 1 LB
of cloves in a pound of meat) Uck , rather let my sheep's Clove[n] hoofs
dance on my tongue first.
> references to 'spice powder', 'strong spice powder', 'powder' without
further
> instructions seems to lend credence to this position. As does the
existence
> of wandering spice grinders.
>
> In my viewpoint, the biggest argument against the use of large quantities
of
> spices in a given recipe (e.g. 1 LB of cloves in a pound of meat) is
simply
> the fact that the resulting dish is inedible.
>
> Ras
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
>
--__--__--
Message: 4
From: "Olwen the Odd" <olwentheodd at hotmail.com>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 13:24:54 -0000
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Balthazar, did you look at the pictures on the site? The little false
cubebs did look a little grayish to me. They were also smaller and not
round.
Olwen
>--- lilinah at earthlink.net wrote:
> >
> > Yeah, my new "cubebs" are like yours. I guess
> > they're just tailed
> > peppers. They're good, but not like my old cubebs.
> >
> > Sigh
>
>I'm still looking into this, mind you, and others may
>already have better information, but I believe the
>best way to tell cubebs from 'false cubeb' is by
>color. 'False Cubeb' is said to be grayish, while
>real cubebs are said to be reddish-brown.
>
>Balthazar of Blackmoor
>
>=====
>Words are Trains for moving past what really has no name...
>
>__________________________________________________
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--__--__--
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 06:35:54 -0700
From: "Laura C. Minnick" <lcm at efn.org>
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
ruadh wrote:
>
> could the scribe have make their own changes due to personal preferences ??
> and where people used to *that much* of a powder ? like Cajun, I can't get
> near the stuff. Others say the "developed" a taste for it. but, (e.g. 1 LB
> of cloves in a pound of meat) Uck , rather let my sheep's Clove[n] hoofs
> dance on my tongue first.
I suppose they could- after all, some scribes have included saffron in
recipes, and are clearly in error...
:-D :-D :-D
'Lainie
(just teasing, your Grace!)
--__--__--
Message: 6
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:35:22 EDT
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs)
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/9/01 2:21:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, stefan at texas.net
writes:
<< I get the feeling I'm being accused of doing something wrong, but I'm not
sure what. >>
Not really. I was just reminding folks that there are alternatives. For
instance, a look in the illustrations in the Tacuinum Sanitatis will give an
indication of not only container possibilities but also example crops grown
in containers, garden design/planting grid ideas for specific crops, garden
enclosure design and even harvesting and storage methods. For instance leeks
seem to have been bundled in clumps of 5-6 (not inconsistance with modern
leek handling).
I happen to use period gardening techniques because they grow
tastier/poison-free crops. Often times we tend to wander off into Mundania
when any particular subject comes up, which in itself is not necessarily
bad, but I do think it is prudent to remind folks oin general that period
methods are often times accessible and doable exspecially when those
subjuects are in my own field of interest.
Since my original post was designed to talk about period gardening, etc. (as
I am prone to do this time of the year since I practise it as much as
possible outside the SCA and think others can enjoy the benefits of period
ORGANIC methods as well). I see no harm in at least trying to bring the
conversation back around to period methods. Such methods and techniques can
also create beautiful landscaping scenarios which is great considering the
current welcome trend in American landscaping to get away from the flat green
lawn look and actually turn their leisure space into beautiful gartden areas
and rooms.
I am sorry if it seems as if I was picking on you. My comments are always
intended to be nonpersonal. As I have relayed numerous times, I do NOT check
to see who has written any particular post to this list until AFTER I have
addressed any comments I wish to make to the list about the content of any
given post. Oftentimes I check after I have mailed a responce but NOT
generally before.
Ras
--__--__--
Message: 7
From: LrdRas at aol.com
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 09:45:05 EDT
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Re: easy to grow herbs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
In a message dated 5/9/01 8:56:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
jenne at mail.browser.net writes:
<< Actually, I believe you may be either limiting your time period or unaware
of some
sources. I would not characterize an 8 to 12 inch pot as 'very large', and
there are
certainly plants pictured in 8-12" pots in illustrations in _The Italian
Renaissance
Interior_.
>>
Thank you so much for this information. I have been intensively pouring over
14th century manuscripts for illustrations of garden design/planting
information and my responce was focused oin that time period. You are
correct. Different time periods used different containers. There are even
smaller decorative urns shown in the 14th century illuminations as herb plant
containers. <sigh> So much to learn ....so little time. :-(
Ras
--__--__--
Message: 8
Date: 08 May 2001 18:38:36 EDT
From: Marian.Deborah.Rosenberg at washcoll.edu (Marian Deborah Rosenberg)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Sca-cooks] OOP OT I'm back
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Hi,
Some of you may remember me. I used to be active on this list. Then came
the attack of senior year of college and I simply didn't have the time to read
the list. I just re-subscribed and hopefully will be here for another good
long while.
In the past 6 months I don't really have any wonderful period food news.
I've got some wonderful historical cook book news but no wonderful period food
news.
If anyone remembers my class dinner project, the teacher nixed the whole
dinner idea and let me make one dish for it. I ended up making Torta Sambuccea
for the Renaissance and Reformation class dinner. Unfortunately, they turned
out not to be cooked enough to set and weren't eaten. The next day someone
stole them out of the Literary House freezer. I'm still pissed about this.
(This is probably the same sort of idiot ... or considering campus size the
same idiot ... who caused access to the Larabee Arts building to be denied to
students by stealing art work off the walls!)
If anyone remembers the whole broken leg thing, I'm walking, and quite well.
That's about all I can think of, I plan to return to my active role as a
lurker who knows almost nothing about period cookery but who really really
wants to know and who asks lots of questions.
-M
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 07:51:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] cubebs
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
--- Olwen the Odd <olwentheodd at hotmail.com> wrote:
> Balthazar, did you look at the pictures on the site?
> The little false
> cubebs did look a little grayish to me. They were
> also smaller and not
> round.
> Olwen
Yes, I took a look at the pictures, but not having
access to a real 'false cubeb', I can't really
describe the color first-hand. Hence the term 'said
to be grayish'...
Balthazar of Blackmoor
=====
Words are Trains for moving past what really has no name...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Chris Stanifer <jugglethis at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
--- LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> I happen to use period gardening techniques because
> they grow
> tastier/poison-free crops.
Perhaps you can help me with this delimma, then...
Whilst weeding my garden after work yesterday
afternoon, I noticed my Gladiolas, Crocosmias and
daylillies were being ravaged by tiny little
inchworms... I would rather NOT spray them with a
synthetic chemical poison, but garlic water and soapy
water only seem to make them more hungry. I have
roughly 300 bulbs of various types in only one of my
beds, and ALL of them are being eaten... Do you know
of any effective period/organic methods for removing
inchworms from bulb foliage? And, I'd rather not have
to pick them off by hand, since each plant has about 3
or 4 on it.... So, aside from dousing the whole bed
with carbaryl, what would you suggest?
Also, an unknown pest has taken a liking to my peas,
broad beans, and turnips, so I need a
'veggie-friendly' method of erradicating them, as
well.
Balthazar of Blackmoor
=====
Words are Trains for moving past what really has no name...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
http://auctions.yahoo.com/
--__--__--
Message: 11
From: rcmann4 at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:13:52 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] OOP OT I'm back
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
On 8 May 01,, Marian Deborah Rosenberg wrote:
> That's about all I can think of, I plan to return to my active role as a
> lurker who knows almost nothing about period cookery
Welcome back!
> but who really really wants to know and who asks lots of questions.
Questions are good. Questions provoke discussions. And you will
be doing the good deed of sparing some of the wear and tear on
Stefan's typing fingers. :-)
Lady Brighid ni Chiarain
Settmour Swamp, East (NJ)
mka Robin Carroll-Mann
now at a new address: rcmann4 at earthlink.net
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:16:22 -0500 (CDT)
From: upsxdls_osu at us.inter.net
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Subject: RE: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs)
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Disclaimer: I haven't personally tried this, but gramma said it works. Pick
some of the inchworms off. Whir them in the blender with some water until
well,
um, blended. Spray on plants. 'Course she also advocated smoking a cigar and
blowing the smoke on various insects, too.
Liadan
On Wed, 9 May 2001 08:01:11 -0700 (PDT) you wrote:
>
>
> --- LrdRas at aol.com wrote:
> > I happen to use period gardening techniques because
> > they grow
> > tastier/poison-free crops.
>
> Perhaps you can help me with this delimma, then...
> Whilst weeding my garden after work yesterday
> afternoon, I noticed my Gladiolas, Crocosmias and
> daylillies were being ravaged by tiny little
> inchworms... I would rather NOT spray them with a
> synthetic chemical poison, but garlic water and soapy
> water only seem to make them more hungry. I have
> roughly 300 bulbs of various types in only one of my
> beds, and ALL of them are being eaten... Do you know
> of any effective period/organic methods for removing
> inchworms from bulb foliage? And, I'd rather not have
> to pick them off by hand, since each plant has about 3
> or 4 on it.... So, aside from dousing the whole bed
> with carbaryl, what would you suggest?
>
> Also, an unknown pest has taken a liking to my peas,
> broad beans, and turnips, so I need a
> 'veggie-friendly' method of erradicating them, as
> well.
>
> Balthazar of Blackmoor
>
> =====
> Words are Trains for moving past what really has no name...
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices
> http://auctions.yahoo.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks
>
--__--__--
Message: 13
From: "Christine Seelye-King" <kingstaste at mindspring.com>
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs)
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:21:17 -0400
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> inchworms... I would rather NOT spray them with a
> synthetic chemical poison, but garlic water and soapy
> water only seem to make them more hungry.
> Balthazar of Blackmoor
>
Add cayenne to your soapy water mix.
Christianna
--__--__--
Message: 14
From: Jenne Heise <jenne at mail.browser.net>
Subject: Re: Re: [Sca-cooks] Period gardening (was easy to grow herbs)
To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 11:21:56 -0400 (EDT)
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> Disclaimer: I haven't personally tried this, but gramma said it works. Pick
> some of the inchworms off. Whir them in the blender with some water until
well,
> um, blended. Spray on plants. 'Course she also advocated smoking a cigar and
> blowing the smoke on various insects, too.
I believe (have to check my sources) that both these methods are recommended
in Hyll's
_Gardener's Labyrinth_, in which case they are among the few 16th century
pest control
recommendations from that volume that would actually do anything...
--
Jadwiga Zajaczkowa, mka Jennifer Heise jenne at mail.browser.net
disclaimer: i speak for no-one and no-one speaks for me.
"It's no use trying to be clever-- we are all clever here; just try
to be kind -- a little kind." F.J. Foakes-Jackson
--__--__--
Message: 15
From: "Decker, Terry D." <TerryD at Health.State.OK.US>
To: "'sca-cooks at ansteorra.org'" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: RE: [Sca-cooks] No Sugar in 10th Century??
Date: Wed, 9 May 2001 10:21:21 -0500
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Most of the Medieval and Renaissance recipes don't list quantities for any
of the ingredients, so the quantities can't be altered for those recipes.
Scribes were copyists and transcribers of dictation. Since the scribe is
not a cook, the scribe would likely have little knowledge, except in rare
instances, about the ratios between the ingredients (the mysteries of the
cook) in a recipe, so altering the recipe would be foolish, especially if
the recipe were read to the cook. However, typographical and transcription
errors do occur. To examine differences between different copies of the
same recipe, take a look at the recipes in Cindy Renfrow's Take A Thousand
Eggs Or More, specifically those from Harleian MS. 279 and Harleian MS.
4016. The two manuscripts have a lot of overlap (suggesting one is copied
from the other), are approximately 30 years apart, and have some interesting
linguistic differences.
As for spicing, just what is the definition of "heavily spiced?" I tend to
think a dish is heavily spiced if I can make out the individual spices and
the spices overpower the taste of the other ingredients, but how does that
translate to quantities? Did Medieval diners want to make out the taste of
the individual spices or did they want the flavors to blend? What quantity
of spices were used by a household in a year? How much was used for
medicine and how much for cooking? How many people used these spices? How
potent were these spices? An accurate answer to those questions would make
a reputation for a historian.
A 1:1 mix of cloves to meat can be ruled out. It is insanely expensive and
inedible. But, a pinch, a teaspoon or a tablespoon to a pound of meat are
all possible. How do we determine which is accurate?
I think a lot depends on the individual tastes of the cook's patron. Just
as private cooks today prepare meals to their patron's tastes, Medieval
cooks would prepare food to the taste and medical needs of their patrons.
Arguing quantities of spices used is an exercise in historical research,
recreating a recipe is a matter of taste. I let my tongue guide me, when I
prepare recipes. After all, the dish must be to my patron's taste.
Bear
> could the scribe have make their own changes due to personal
> preferences ??
> and where people used to *that much* of a powder ? like
> Cajun, I can't get
> near the stuff. Others say the "developed" a taste for it.
> but, (e.g. 1 LB
> of cloves in a pound of meat) Uck , rather let my sheep's
> Clove[n] hoofs
> dance on my tongue first.
--__--__--
Message: 16
From: Devra at aol.com
Date: Wed, 09 May 2001 11:28:25 EDT
To: <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Re: Sca-cooks digest, Vol 1 #18 -
Reply-To: sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
Is something wrong with the list? I have gotten three copies of the same
digests, kind of lumped into each other....
Devra
--__--__--
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