[Sca-cooks] Memos from a Mastic Marathon....
Cindy M. Renfrow
cindy at thousandeggs.com
Mon Apr 15 06:22:19 PDT 2002
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From: "Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 21 Feb 1999 21:41:44 GMT
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I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"
and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in several of the
recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient encyclopedias have
this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone
identify what this is?
Many thanks,
Cathy Kaufman
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From: bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 22 Feb 1999 01:29:47 GMT
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"Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery
> Book" and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in
> several of the recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient
> encyclopedias have this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine
> cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
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From: "Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:48:40 +0200
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bogus address wrote in message <4211 at purr.demon.co.uk>...
>> I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery
>> Book" and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in
>> several of the recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient
>> encyclopedias have this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine
>> cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
>Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
That's a pretty good guess, but cochineal was a red dye. Would it have been
put in food?
Bob
Istanbul
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From: asmith1946 at aol.com (ASmith1946)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subjec
t: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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Re Cathy Kaufman's request re Blattes de Bysance, Jack Campin writes:
>Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
Andy Smith
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <19990222113343.16543.00001636 at ng147.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
(ASmith1946) writes:
>Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
No. There were two varieties commonly used as a cloth dye in mediaeval Europe.
One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana) lived
in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
imported from "the East" via Constantinople. Neither was ever used as food
colouring so far as I know; "saunders" (which if I recall aright was a sort of
red sandalwood) or, when appropriate and available, berries, were used as red
food colourings.
Stephanie
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From: asmith1946 at aol.com (ASmith1946)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In response to my question:
>
>>Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
>
Stephanie wrote:
>No. There were two varieties commonly used as a cloth dye in mediaeval
>Europe.
> One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana)
>lived
>in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
>imported from "the East" via Constantinople. Neither was ever used as food
>colouring so far as I know; "saunders" (which if I recall aright was a sort
>of
>red sandalwood) or, when appropriate and available, berries, were used as red
>food colourings.
>
Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was specifically
used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
(1906).
Andy Smith
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
(ASmith1946) writes:
>Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
>specifically
>used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
>(1906).
Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food colouring in
mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
Stephanie
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From: bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:33:54 GMT
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"Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr> writes:
> bogus address wrote in message <4211 at purr.demon.co.uk>...
>>> [in A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"]
>>> the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" [...] a literal translation
>>> yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
>> Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
> That's a pretty good guess, but cochineal was a red dye. Would it
> have been put in food?
It never occurred to me you did anything else with it. My mum used it
as a food colour in the Fifties, it was the only red food colour you
could buy when I was a kid, and it's still listed as European additive
E120.
What non-food uses does it have? It must be far too expensive to use
for dyeing fabric.
Andy Smith wrote:
: Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
Yes, but it was used in Europe by 1586, according to the OED; when was
the Baghdad Cookery Book?
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
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From: geeta at life.cc.sunysb.edu (Geeta Bharathan)
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
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Noramunro (noramunro at aol.com) wrote:
: In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
: (ASmith1946) writes:
: >Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
: >specifically
: >used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
: Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food
colouring in
: mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
I have this from a (modern) Goan cookbook:
"Cordeal"
Almonds or cashew 4 cups
sugar 3.75 cups
rose water
cochineal
Grind the almonds in rose water, make a syrup of the sugar and water;
colour the syrup with a few drops of cochineal. Add almonds to the
thickened syrup , stir to the soft ball stage, pour onto greased pan, cool
and cut into squares.
This dish has to be of Portugese origin.
--Geeta
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <4213 at purr.demon.co.uk>, Jack, masquerading as
bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) writes:
>What non-food uses does it have? It must be far too expensive to use
>for dyeing fabric.
As I mentioned in a previous note, it *was* used for dyeing fabric. I think my
earliest evidence on that score dates from the middle fourteenth century, but
it could well have been in use earlier. It was prized for the deep colour it
gave, much richer than reds produced with madder dyes. At some point
(fifteenth century?) kermes became the dye specified by the Holy See for
cardinals' clothes, murex dyes having become prohibitively expensive.
Jacqueline Herald's _Renaissance Italy_ (a volume in the History of Dress
series) has some good information on 15th c. use of cochineal.
But this is off-topic ... how early was cochineal used as a food colouring?
And what's the date of the Baghdad Cookery Book?
Stephanie
(who never figured that being a textile junkie would pay off over here)
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From: "Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:55:08 +0200
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Noramunro wrote in message <19990222115500.06131.00000613 at ngol05.aol.com>...
> One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana)
lived
>in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
>imported from "the East" via Constantinople.
Bingo! The "kermes" is body of a dried bug that was used to make a red dye
common throughout the Middle East. It is the source of the English word
"crimson". (The root of the word lies in the Turkish word "kirmizi", which
means "red", by the way.)
Note to Cathy Kaufman: It sounds like you're looking for the ancestor of
"red dye #2" or something. Does that make sense in the recipe you were
enquiring about?
Bob
Istanbul
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From: tanyaw at world.std.com (Tanya Washburn)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:55:15 -0500
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It's still used now- Last time I checked it was on the ingredient label
for Ocean Spray Ruby Red Grapefruit Juice, and I am sure I have seen it
other places. It qualifies as an "all natural" food coloring.
Tanya
In article <36d20fcd.0 at news.ic.sunysb.edu>, geeta at life.cc.sunysb.edu
(Geeta Bharathan) wrote:
> Noramunro (noramunro at aol.com) wrote:
> : In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>,
>asmith1946 at aol.com
> : (ASmith1946) writes:
>
> : >Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
> : >specifically
> : >used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and
>Drug Act
>
> : Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food
colouring in
> : mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
>
> I have this from a (modern) Goan cookbook:
>
> "Cordeal"
>
> Almonds or cashew 4 cups
> sugar 3.75 cups
> rose water
> cochineal
>
> Grind the almonds in rose water, make a syrup of the sugar and water;
> colour the syrup with a few drops of cochineal. Add almonds to the
> thickened syrup , stir to the soft ball stage, pour onto greased pan, cool
> and cut into squares.
>
> This dish has to be of Portugese origin.
>
> --Geeta
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rom: "Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 22:10:25 GMT
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Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
First, when the Baghdad Cookery Book wants you to tint a dish, the recipe
so states: "color with saffron,", etc. Second, it doesn't make sense in
the structure of the recipes.
The specific recipe I'm interested in is from the "relishes" section and is
for an eggplant dish called bâdhiniân bi-laban. The recipe is as follows:
Take medium-sized eggplants, cut off the leaves and half the stalks, and
half boil in salt and water: then remove and dry well. Throw into milk
[I'm assuming a "Persian milk" or yogurt-type product] and garlic. Refine
fresh sesame oil, add a little cumin and coriander, and into this place the
eggplant. Sprinkle with some blattes by Bysance and sesame and serve.
I'm thinking it might be black onion seed?
Cathy Kaufman
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From: lrudolph at panix.com (Lee Rudolph)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 19:38:01 -0500
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"Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
>blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
An AltaVista search for "bla* NEAR byz*" turned up one hit,
http://bible.ort.org/bible/htm/exodus/penta/ch30.htm ,
an exposition of the making of an incense altar, with
lots of exegeses of various smelly things. The relevant
passage is:
30 : 34 onycha Shecheleth in Hebrew. The Targum translates this as
tufra, the Talmud as tziporen (Kerithoth 6a), and the Septuagint as
onyx, all denoting "fingernail." Some maintain that this is a spice
actually prepared from human fingernails (cf. Arukh s.v. Tziporen),
but most authorities see it as coming from an aquatic animal (Mossef
HeArukh ibid.; Ramban). It is therefore usually identified as onycha
(Hirsch; King James) or blatta byzantia (Abarbanel; Shiltey Gibborim
85), the fingernail-like operculum or closing flap of certain snails
of the murex family, such as the Onyx marinus, Strombus lentiginosus,
or Unguis Odaratus (Tifereth Yisrael, Chomer Bakodesh 2:67; Cf. Ben
Sirah 24:15, Dioscorides, De Materia Medica 2:10). This emits a very
pleasant smell when burned.
Perhaps the opercula of strombi are also pleasant smelling when
sprinkled on eggplant?
Lee Rudolph
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From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 24 Feb 1999 12:24:48 -0500
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In article <01be5de5$44ee1460$66f34e0c at default>,
Cathy Kaufman <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"
>and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in several of the
>recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient encyclopedias have
>this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone
>identify what this is?
I s'pose it's possible that the Saracens ate cockroaches; I believe that
it's also possible that this might be a scribal error. My copy of
Platina's _De Honestae Voluptatis_ (Italian 15th cent.)
glosses the Latin "bleta" as "chard", and _Cassell's French Dictionary_
translates "blette" as "strawberry-spinach". (Couldn't find anything
close in my Old French dictionary)
So perhaps, given the rather lackadaisical attitude toward spelling before
the modern era, your "blattes de Bysance" are some sort of pot herb....
Hope this helps--
D.Peters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
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Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:33 -0800
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It's taken me a couple of days to dig out my photocopies, but here finally
is the low-down on the so-called "blattes de Byzance". The real blattes de
Byzance (also known as "onycha") are the opercules (shell-hinges) of a
particular shellfish. These are used in some perfumery, particularly in
incenses, as they have a powerful scent when ground and heated. Among other
things, they are an ingredient in the famous Biblical incense of the High
Priests.
However, this is not what the recipe actually calls for. The original Arabic
editor of the *Baghdad Cookery Book*, Dr. Da'ud Celebi (please pardon the
lack of accents, as I don't know how to get them in e-mail) was unaware of
the meaning of the phrase "atraf at-tib", and so emended it to "azfar
at-tib", which translates as "blattes de Byzance". This was followed by
Arberry when he made his English translation. However, the original phrase
is correct; it is just that Celebi couldn't find it in his modern Arabic
dictionaries. In medieval Arabs sources "atraf at-tib" (which translates as
"parcelles de parfum" or "packages of perfume") is a frequently used spice
mix. In the *Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib* of about 1260 A.D. it says "c'est
un melange d'epices tres souvent employe dans la cuisine; ce melange
comprend de la lavande, du betel, des feuilles de laurier, de la muscade, du
maccis, du cardamome, des clous de girofle, des boutons de rose, des faines,
du gingembre et du poivre, ce dernier devant etre pile a part." (Maxime
Rodinson, "Recherches sur les documents Arabes relatifs a la cuisine", in
*Revue des Etudes Islamiques*, vol. 17 [1949], p. 132.) So it is a complex
spice mix, rather like the modern ras al-hanout of Morocco.
I hope this helps.
On another side line, the colouring material used in the medieval Old World
was kermes, which is an insect very similar to (but not the same as)
cochineal. Kermes grows on a certain kind of oak. Cochineal is a New World
species, which grows on a cactus. It was first imported to Europe about
1545, and rapidly replaced kermes as a colouring material (both for food and
for cloth) because its concentration of the actual dye is much greater than
in kermes.
On a crass commercial note, if anyone wishes to try cochineal, or black salt
(which was mentioned at one point in the discussion), we sell both through
our on-line catalogue (url address below).
David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net
partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net
http://www.silk.net/sirene/
Cathy Kaufman wrote in message <01be5f7b$9ceac400$9cec4f0c at default>...
>Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
>blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
>First, when the Baghdad Cookery Book wants you to tint a dish, the recipe
>so states: "color with saffron,", etc. Second, it doesn't make sense in
>the structure of the recipes.
>
>The specific recipe I'm interested in is from the "relishes" section and is
>for an eggplant dish called bâdhiniân bi-laban. The recipe is as follows:
>
>Take medium-sized eggplants, cut off the leaves and half the stalks, and
>half boil in salt and water: then remove and dry well. Throw into milk
>[I'm assuming a "Persian milk" or yogurt-type product] and garlic. Refine
>fresh sesame oil, add a little cumin and coriander, and into this place the
>eggplant. Sprinkle with some blattes by Bysance and sesame and serve.
>
>I'm thinking it might be black onion seed?
>
>Cathy Kaufman
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From: "Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 21 Feb 1999 21:41:44 GMT
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I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"
and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in several of the
recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient encyclopedias have
this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone
identify what this is?
Many thanks,
Cathy Kaufman
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From: bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 22 Feb 1999 01:29:47 GMT
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"Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery
> Book" and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in
> several of the recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient
> encyclopedias have this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine
> cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
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From: "Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:48:40 +0200
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bogus address wrote in message <4211 at purr.demon.co.uk>...
>> I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery
>> Book" and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in
>> several of the recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient
>> encyclopedias have this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine
>> cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
>Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
That's a pretty good guess, but cochineal was a red dye. Would it have been
put in food?
Bob
Istanbul
---
To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
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From: asmith1946 at aol.com (ASmith1946)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subjec
t: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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Re Cathy Kaufman's request re Blattes de Bysance, Jack Campin writes:
>Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
Andy Smith
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <19990222113343.16543.00001636 at ng147.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
(ASmith1946) writes:
>Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
No. There were two varieties commonly used as a cloth dye in mediaeval Europe.
One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana) lived
in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
imported from "the East" via Constantinople. Neither was ever used as food
colouring so far as I know; "saunders" (which if I recall aright was a sort of
red sandalwood) or, when appropriate and available, berries, were used as red
food colourings.
Stephanie
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From: asmith1946 at aol.com (ASmith1946)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In response to my question:
>
>>Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
>
Stephanie wrote:
>No. There were two varieties commonly used as a cloth dye in mediaeval
>Europe.
> One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana)
>lived
>in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
>imported from "the East" via Constantinople. Neither was ever used as food
>colouring so far as I know; "saunders" (which if I recall aright was a sort
>of
>red sandalwood) or, when appropriate and available, berries, were used as red
>food colourings.
>
Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was specifically
used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
(1906).
Andy Smith
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
(ASmith1946) writes:
>Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
>specifically
>used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
>(1906).
Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food colouring in
mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
Stephanie
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From: bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:33:54 GMT
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"Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr> writes:
> bogus address wrote in message <4211 at purr.demon.co.uk>...
>>> [in A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"]
>>> the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" [...] a literal translation
>>> yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
>> Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
> That's a pretty good guess, but cochineal was a red dye. Would it
> have been put in food?
It never occurred to me you did anything else with it. My mum used it
as a food colour in the Fifties, it was the only red food colour you
could buy when I was a kid, and it's still listed as European additive
E120.
What non-food uses does it have? It must be far too expensive to use
for dyeing fabric.
Andy Smith wrote:
: Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
Yes, but it was used in Europe by 1586, according to the OED; when was
the Baghdad Cookery Book?
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
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From: geeta at life.cc.sunysb.edu (Geeta Bharathan)
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
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Noramunro (noramunro at aol.com) wrote:
: In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
: (ASmith1946) writes:
: >Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
: >specifically
: >used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
: Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food
colouring in
: mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
I have this from a (modern) Goan cookbook:
"Cordeal"
Almonds or cashew 4 cups
sugar 3.75 cups
rose water
cochineal
Grind the almonds in rose water, make a syrup of the sugar and water;
colour the syrup with a few drops of cochineal. Add almonds to the
thickened syrup , stir to the soft ball stage, pour onto greased pan, cool
and cut into squares.
This dish has to be of Portugese origin.
--Geeta
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <4213 at purr.demon.co.uk>, Jack, masquerading as
bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) writes:
>What non-food uses does it have? It must be far too expensive to use
>for dyeing fabric.
As I mentioned in a previous note, it *was* used for dyeing fabric. I think my
earliest evidence on that score dates from the middle fourteenth century, but
it could well have been in use earlier. It was prized for the deep colour it
gave, much richer than reds produced with madder dyes. At some point
(fifteenth century?) kermes became the dye specified by the Holy See for
cardinals' clothes, murex dyes having become prohibitively expensive.
Jacqueline Herald's _Renaissance Italy_ (a volume in the History of Dress
series) has some good information on 15th c. use of cochineal.
But this is off-topic ... how early was cochineal used as a food colouring?
And what's the date of the Baghdad Cookery Book?
Stephanie
(who never figured that being a textile junkie would pay off over here)
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From: "Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:55:08 +0200
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Noramunro wrote in message <19990222115500.06131.00000613 at ngol05.aol.com>...
> One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana)
lived
>in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
>imported from "the East" via Constantinople.
Bingo! The "kermes" is body of a dried bug that was used to make a red dye
common throughout the Middle East. It is the source of the English word
"crimson". (The root of the word lies in the Turkish word "kirmizi", which
means "red", by the way.)
Note to Cathy Kaufman: It sounds like you're looking for the ancestor of
"red dye #2" or something. Does that make sense in the recipe you were
enquiring about?
Bob
Istanbul
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From: tanyaw at world.std.com (Tanya Washburn)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:55:15 -0500
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It's still used now- Last time I checked it was on the ingredient label
for Ocean Spray Ruby Red Grapefruit Juice, and I am sure I have seen it
other places. It qualifies as an "all natural" food coloring.
Tanya
In article <36d20fcd.0 at news.ic.sunysb.edu>, geeta at life.cc.sunysb.edu
(Geeta Bharathan) wrote:
> Noramunro (noramunro at aol.com) wrote:
> : In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>,
>asmith1946 at aol.com
> : (ASmith1946) writes:
>
> : >Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
> : >specifically
> : >used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and
>Drug Act
>
> : Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food
colouring in
> : mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
>
> I have this from a (modern) Goan cookbook:
>
> "Cordeal"
>
> Almonds or cashew 4 cups
> sugar 3.75 cups
> rose water
> cochineal
>
> Grind the almonds in rose water, make a syrup of the sugar and water;
> colour the syrup with a few drops of cochineal. Add almonds to the
> thickened syrup , stir to the soft ball stage, pour onto greased pan, cool
> and cut into squares.
>
> This dish has to be of Portugese origin.
>
> --Geeta
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rom: "Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 22:10:25 GMT
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Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
First, when the Baghdad Cookery Book wants you to tint a dish, the recipe
so states: "color with saffron,", etc. Second, it doesn't make sense in
the structure of the recipes.
The specific recipe I'm interested in is from the "relishes" section and is
for an eggplant dish called bâdhiniân bi-laban. The recipe is as follows:
Take medium-sized eggplants, cut off the leaves and half the stalks, and
half boil in salt and water: then remove and dry well. Throw into milk
[I'm assuming a "Persian milk" or yogurt-type product] and garlic. Refine
fresh sesame oil, add a little cumin and coriander, and into this place the
eggplant. Sprinkle with some blattes by Bysance and sesame and serve.
I'm thinking it might be black onion seed?
Cathy Kaufman
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From: lrudolph at panix.com (Lee Rudolph)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 19:38:01 -0500
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"Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
>blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
An AltaVista search for "bla* NEAR byz*" turned up one hit,
http://bible.ort.org/bible/htm/exodus/penta/ch30.htm ,
an exposition of the making of an incense altar, with
lots of exegeses of various smelly things. The relevant
passage is:
30 : 34 onycha Shecheleth in Hebrew. The Targum translates this as
tufra, the Talmud as tziporen (Kerithoth 6a), and the Septuagint as
onyx, all denoting "fingernail." Some maintain that this is a spice
actually prepared from human fingernails (cf. Arukh s.v. Tziporen),
but most authorities see it as coming from an aquatic animal (Mossef
HeArukh ibid.; Ramban). It is therefore usually identified as onycha
(Hirsch; King James) or blatta byzantia (Abarbanel; Shiltey Gibborim
85), the fingernail-like operculum or closing flap of certain snails
of the murex family, such as the Onyx marinus, Strombus lentiginosus,
or Unguis Odaratus (Tifereth Yisrael, Chomer Bakodesh 2:67; Cf. Ben
Sirah 24:15, Dioscorides, De Materia Medica 2:10). This emits a very
pleasant smell when burned.
Perhaps the opercula of strombi are also pleasant smelling when
sprinkled on eggplant?
Lee Rudolph
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From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 24 Feb 1999 12:24:48 -0500
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In article <01be5de5$44ee1460$66f34e0c at default>,
Cathy Kaufman <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"
>and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in several of the
>recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient encyclopedias have
>this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone
>identify what this is?
I s'pose it's possible that the Saracens ate cockroaches; I believe that
it's also possible that this might be a scribal error. My copy of
Platina's _De Honestae Voluptatis_ (Italian 15th cent.)
glosses the Latin "bleta" as "chard", and _Cassell's French Dictionary_
translates "blette" as "strawberry-spinach". (Couldn't find anything
close in my Old French dictionary)
So perhaps, given the rather lackadaisical attitude toward spelling before
the modern era, your "blattes de Bysance" are some sort of pot herb....
Hope this helps--
D.Peters
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
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Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:33 -0800
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It's taken me a couple of days to dig out my photocopies, but here finally
is the low-down on the so-called "blattes de Byzance". The real blattes de
Byzance (also known as "onycha") are the opercules (shell-hinges) of a
particular shellfish. These are used in some perfumery, particularly in
incenses, as they have a powerful scent when ground and heated. Among other
things, they are an ingredient in the famous Biblical incense of the High
Priests.
However, this is not what the recipe actually calls for. The original Arabic
editor of the *Baghdad Cookery Book*, Dr. Da'ud Celebi (please pardon the
lack of accents, as I don't know how to get them in e-mail) was unaware of
the meaning of the phrase "atraf at-tib", and so emended it to "azfar
at-tib", which translates as "blattes de Byzance". This was followed by
Arberry when he made his English translation. However, the original phrase
is correct; it is just that Celebi couldn't find it in his modern Arabic
dictionaries. In medieval Arabs sources "atraf at-tib" (which translates as
"parcelles de parfum" or "packages of perfume") is a frequently used spice
mix. In the *Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib* of about 1260 A.D. it says "c'est
un melange d'epices tres souvent employe dans la cuisine; ce melange
comprend de la lavande, du betel, des feuilles de laurier, de la muscade, du
maccis, du cardamome, des clous de girofle, des boutons de rose, des faines,
du gingembre et du poivre, ce dernier devant etre pile a part." (Maxime
Rodinson, "Recherches sur les documents Arabes relatifs a la cuisine", in
*Revue des Etudes Islamiques*, vol. 17 [1949], p. 132.) So it is a complex
spice mix, rather like the modern ras al-hanout of Morocco.
I hope this helps.
On another side line, the colouring material used in the medieval Old World
was kermes, which is an insect very similar to (but not the same as)
cochineal. Kermes grows on a certain kind of oak. Cochineal is a New World
species, which grows on a cactus. It was first imported to Europe about
1545, and rapidly replaced kermes as a colouring material (both for food and
for cloth) because its concentration of the actual dye is much greater than
in kermes.
On a crass commercial note, if anyone wishes to try cochineal, or black salt
(which was mentioned at one point in the discussion), we sell both through
our on-line catalogue (url address below).
David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net
partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net
http://www.silk.net/sirene/
Cathy Kaufman wrote in message <01be5f7b$9ceac400$9cec4f0c at default>...
>Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
>blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
>First, when the Baghdad Cookery Book wants you to tint a dish, the recipe
>so states: "color with saffron,", etc. Second, it doesn't make sense in
>the structure of the recipes.
>
>The specific recipe I'm interested in is from the "relishes" section and is
>for an eggplant dish called bâdhiniân bi-laban. The recipe is as follows:
>
>Take medium-sized eggplants, cut off the leaves and half the stalks, and
>half boil in salt and water: then remove and dry well. Throw into milk
>[I'm assuming a "Persian milk" or yogurt-type product] and garlic. Refine
>fresh sesame oil, add a little cumin and coriander, and into this place the
>eggplant. Sprinkle with some blattes by Bysance and sesame and serve.
>
>I'm thinking it might be black onion seed?
>
>Cathy Kaufman
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From: "Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 21 Feb 1999 21:41:44 GMT
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I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"
and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in several of the
recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient encyclopedias have
this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone
identify what this is?
Many thanks,
Cathy Kaufman
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From: bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 22 Feb 1999 01:29:47 GMT
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"Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> writes:
> I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery
> Book" and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in
> several of the recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient
> encyclopedias have this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine
> cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
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From: "Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 17:48:40 +0200
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bogus address wrote in message <4211 at purr.demon.co.uk>...
>> I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery
>> Book" and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in
>> several of the recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient
>> encyclopedias have this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine
>> cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
>Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
That's a pretty good guess, but cochineal was a red dye. Would it have been
put in food?
Bob
Istanbul
---
To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
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From: asmith1946 at aol.com (ASmith1946)
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Subjec
t: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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Re Cathy Kaufman's request re Blattes de Bysance, Jack Campin writes:
>Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
Andy Smith
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <19990222113343.16543.00001636 at ng147.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
(ASmith1946) writes:
>Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
No. There were two varieties commonly used as a cloth dye in mediaeval Europe.
One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana) lived
in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
imported from "the East" via Constantinople. Neither was ever used as food
colouring so far as I know; "saunders" (which if I recall aright was a sort of
red sandalwood) or, when appropriate and available, berries, were used as red
food colourings.
Stephanie
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From: asmith1946 at aol.com (ASmith1946)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In response to my question:
>
>>Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
>
Stephanie wrote:
>No. There were two varieties commonly used as a cloth dye in mediaeval
>Europe.
> One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana)
>lived
>in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
>imported from "the East" via Constantinople. Neither was ever used as food
>colouring so far as I know; "saunders" (which if I recall aright was a sort
>of
>red sandalwood) or, when appropriate and available, berries, were used as red
>food colourings.
>
Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was specifically
used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
(1906).
Andy Smith
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
(ASmith1946) writes:
>Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
>specifically
>used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
>(1906).
Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food colouring in
mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
Stephanie
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From: bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 00:33:54 GMT
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"Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr> writes:
> bogus address wrote in message <4211 at purr.demon.co.uk>...
>>> [in A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"]
>>> the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" [...] a literal translation
>>> yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone identify what this is?
>> Just guessing, but does cochineal make sense in the context?
> That's a pretty good guess, but cochineal was a red dye. Would it
> have been put in food?
It never occurred to me you did anything else with it. My mum used it
as a food colour in the Fifties, it was the only red food colour you
could buy when I was a kid, and it's still listed as European additive
E120.
What non-food uses does it have? It must be far too expensive to use
for dyeing fabric.
Andy Smith wrote:
: Isn't cochineal from a New World insect?
Yes, but it was used in Europe by 1586, according to the OED; when was
the Baghdad Cookery Book?
---> email to "jc" at this site: email to "jack" or "bogus" will bounce <---
Jack Campin: 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU; 0131 6604760
http://www.purr.demon.co.uk/purrhome.html food intolerance data and recipes,
freeware logic fonts for the Macintosh, and Scots traditional music resources
----------------------------------------------------------------------
From: geeta at life.cc.sunysb.edu (Geeta Bharathan)
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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Noramunro (noramunro at aol.com) wrote:
: In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>, asmith1946 at aol.com
: (ASmith1946) writes:
: >Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
: >specifically
: >used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and Drug Act
: Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food
colouring in
: mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
I have this from a (modern) Goan cookbook:
"Cordeal"
Almonds or cashew 4 cups
sugar 3.75 cups
rose water
cochineal
Grind the almonds in rose water, make a syrup of the sugar and water;
colour the syrup with a few drops of cochineal. Add almonds to the
thickened syrup , stir to the soft ball stage, pour onto greased pan, cool
and cut into squares.
This dish has to be of Portugese origin.
--Geeta
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From: noramunro at aol.com (Noramunro)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
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Date: 23 Feb 1999 02:37:48 GMT
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In article <4213 at purr.demon.co.uk>, Jack, masquerading as
bogus at purr.demon.co.uk (bogus address) writes:
>What non-food uses does it have? It must be far too expensive to use
>for dyeing fabric.
As I mentioned in a previous note, it *was* used for dyeing fabric. I think my
earliest evidence on that score dates from the middle fourteenth century, but
it could well have been in use earlier. It was prized for the deep colour it
gave, much richer than reds produced with madder dyes. At some point
(fifteenth century?) kermes became the dye specified by the Holy See for
cardinals' clothes, murex dyes having become prohibitively expensive.
Jacqueline Herald's _Renaissance Italy_ (a volume in the History of Dress
series) has some good information on 15th c. use of cochineal.
But this is off-topic ... how early was cochineal used as a food colouring?
And what's the date of the Baghdad Cookery Book?
Stephanie
(who never figured that being a textile junkie would pay off over here)
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From: "Opinicus" <tiglat at doruk-net.tr>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 18:55:08 +0200
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Noramunro wrote in message <19990222115500.06131.00000613 at ngol05.aol.com>...
> One (considered the less desirable, and sometimes called grain or grana)
lived
>in the Mediterranean region; the other (called kermes, chermisi, etc) was
>imported from "the East" via Constantinople.
Bingo! The "kermes" is body of a dried bug that was used to make a red dye
common throughout the Middle East. It is the source of the English word
"crimson". (The root of the word lies in the Turkish word "kirmizi", which
means "red", by the way.)
Note to Cathy Kaufman: It sounds like you're looking for the ancestor of
"red dye #2" or something. Does that make sense in the recipe you were
enquiring about?
Bob
Istanbul
---
To reply by email, dot the dash in doruk-net.
Kanyak's Doghouse <http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/5309/>
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From: tanyaw at world.std.com (Tanya Washburn)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Tue, 23 Feb 1999 13:55:15 -0500
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It's still used now- Last time I checked it was on the ingredient label
for Ocean Spray Ruby Red Grapefruit Juice, and I am sure I have seen it
other places. It qualifies as an "all natural" food coloring.
Tanya
In article <36d20fcd.0 at news.ic.sunysb.edu>, geeta at life.cc.sunysb.edu
(Geeta Bharathan) wrote:
> Noramunro (noramunro at aol.com) wrote:
> : In article <19990222152544.10900.00004234 at ng148.aol.com>,
>asmith1946 at aol.com
> : (ASmith1946) writes:
>
> : >Cochineal was used as a food coloring in the United States. It was
> : >specifically
> : >used to make ketchup red prior to the passage of the Pure Food and
>Drug Act
>
> : Ah, that. :-) I was referring to cochineal being used as a food
colouring in
> : mediaeval Europe -- sorry for being unclear.
>
> I have this from a (modern) Goan cookbook:
>
> "Cordeal"
>
> Almonds or cashew 4 cups
> sugar 3.75 cups
> rose water
> cochineal
>
> Grind the almonds in rose water, make a syrup of the sugar and water;
> colour the syrup with a few drops of cochineal. Add almonds to the
> thickened syrup , stir to the soft ball stage, pour onto greased pan, cool
> and cut into squares.
>
> This dish has to be of Portugese origin.
>
> --Geeta
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rom: "Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 22:10:25 GMT
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Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
First, when the Baghdad Cookery Book wants you to tint a dish, the recipe
so states: "color with saffron,", etc. Second, it doesn't make sense in
the structure of the recipes.
The specific recipe I'm interested in is from the "relishes" section and is
for an eggplant dish called bâdhiniân bi-laban. The recipe is as follows:
Take medium-sized eggplants, cut off the leaves and half the stalks, and
half boil in salt and water: then remove and dry well. Throw into milk
[I'm assuming a "Persian milk" or yogurt-type product] and garlic. Refine
fresh sesame oil, add a little cumin and coriander, and into this place the
eggplant. Sprinkle with some blattes by Bysance and sesame and serve.
I'm thinking it might be black onion seed?
Cathy Kaufman
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From: lrudolph at panix.com (Lee Rudolph)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 23 Feb 1999 19:38:01 -0500
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"Cathy Kaufman" <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> writes:
>Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
>blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
An AltaVista search for "bla* NEAR byz*" turned up one hit,
http://bible.ort.org/bible/htm/exodus/penta/ch30.htm ,
an exposition of the making of an incense altar, with
lots of exegeses of various smelly things. The relevant
passage is:
30 : 34 onycha Shecheleth in Hebrew. The Targum translates this as
tufra, the Talmud as tziporen (Kerithoth 6a), and the Septuagint as
onyx, all denoting "fingernail." Some maintain that this is a spice
actually prepared from human fingernails (cf. Arukh s.v. Tziporen),
but most authorities see it as coming from an aquatic animal (Mossef
HeArukh ibid.; Ramban). It is therefore usually identified as onycha
(Hirsch; King James) or blatta byzantia (Abarbanel; Shiltey Gibborim
85), the fingernail-like operculum or closing flap of certain snails
of the murex family, such as the Onyx marinus, Strombus lentiginosus,
or Unguis Odaratus (Tifereth Yisrael, Chomer Bakodesh 2:67; Cf. Ben
Sirah 24:15, Dioscorides, De Materia Medica 2:10). This emits a very
pleasant smell when burned.
Perhaps the opercula of strombi are also pleasant smelling when
sprinkled on eggplant?
Lee Rudolph
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From: dpeters at panix.com (D. Peters)
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: 24 Feb 1999 12:24:48 -0500
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In article <01be5de5$44ee1460$66f34e0c at default>,
Cathy Kaufman <ckcuisine at worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I am working with A.J. Arberry's translation of "The Baghdad Cookery Book"
>and have come across the ingredient "blattes de Bysance" in several of the
>recipes. None of my French cookbooks or ingredient encyclopedias have
>this, and a literal translation yields "Byzantine cockroaches." Can anyone
>identify what this is?
I s'pose it's possible that the Saracens ate cockroaches; I believe that
it's also possible that this might be a scribal error. My copy of
Platina's _De Honestae Voluptatis_ (Italian 15th cent.)
glosses the Latin "bleta" as "chard", and _Cassell's French Dictionary_
translates "blette" as "strawberry-spinach". (Couldn't find anything
close in my Old French dictionary)
So perhaps, given the rather lackadaisical attitude toward spelling before
the modern era, your "blattes de Bysance" are some sort of pot herb....
Hope this helps--
D.Peters
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From: "David Dendy" <ddendy at silk.net>
Newsgroups: rec.food.historic
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Subject: Re: Blattes de Bysance
Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 10:01:33 -0800
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It's taken me a couple of days to dig out my photocopies, but here finally
is the low-down on the so-called "blattes de Byzance". The real blattes de
Byzance (also known as "onycha") are the opercules (shell-hinges) of a
particular shellfish. These are used in some perfumery, particularly in
incenses, as they have a powerful scent when ground and heated. Among other
things, they are an ingredient in the famous Biblical incense of the High
Priests.
However, this is not what the recipe actually calls for. The original Arabic
editor of the *Baghdad Cookery Book*, Dr. Da'ud Celebi (please pardon the
lack of accents, as I don't know how to get them in e-mail) was unaware of
the meaning of the phrase "atraf at-tib", and so emended it to "azfar
at-tib", which translates as "blattes de Byzance". This was followed by
Arberry when he made his English translation. However, the original phrase
is correct; it is just that Celebi couldn't find it in his modern Arabic
dictionaries. In medieval Arabs sources "atraf at-tib" (which translates as
"parcelles de parfum" or "packages of perfume") is a frequently used spice
mix. In the *Kitab al-Wusla ila l-Habib* of about 1260 A.D. it says "c'est
un melange d'epices tres souvent employe dans la cuisine; ce melange
comprend de la lavande, du betel, des feuilles de laurier, de la muscade, du
maccis, du cardamome, des clous de girofle, des boutons de rose, des faines,
du gingembre et du poivre, ce dernier devant etre pile a part." (Maxime
Rodinson, "Recherches sur les documents Arabes relatifs a la cuisine", in
*Revue des Etudes Islamiques*, vol. 17 [1949], p. 132.) So it is a complex
spice mix, rather like the modern ras al-hanout of Morocco.
I hope this helps.
On another side line, the colouring material used in the medieval Old World
was kermes, which is an insect very similar to (but not the same as)
cochineal. Kermes grows on a certain kind of oak. Cochineal is a New World
species, which grows on a cactus. It was first imported to Europe about
1545, and rapidly replaced kermes as a colouring material (both for food and
for cloth) because its concentration of the actual dye is much greater than
in kermes.
On a crass commercial note, if anyone wishes to try cochineal, or black salt
(which was mentioned at one point in the discussion), we sell both through
our on-line catalogue (url address below).
David Dendy / ddendy at silk.net
partner in Francesco Sirene, Spicer / sirene at silk.net
http://www.silk.net/sirene/
Cathy Kaufman wrote in message <01be5f7b$9ceac400$9cec4f0c at default>...
>Thanks to everyone who has offered suggestions so far about the meaning of
>blattes de Bysance; I do not think, however, that it is a food coloring.
>First, when the Baghdad Cookery Book wants you to tint a dish, the recipe
>so states: "color with saffron,", etc. Second, it doesn't make sense in
>the structure of the recipes.
>
>The specific recipe I'm interested in is from the "relishes" section and is
>for an eggplant dish called bâdhiniân bi-laban. The recipe is as follows:
>
>Take medium-sized eggplants, cut off the leaves and half the stalks, and
>half boil in salt and water: then remove and dry well. Throw into milk
>[I'm assuming a "Persian milk" or yogurt-type product] and garlic. Refine
>fresh sesame oil, add a little cumin and coriander, and into this place the
>eggplant. Sprinkle with some blattes by Bysance and sesame and serve.
>
>I'm thinking it might be black onion seed?
>
>Cathy Kaufman
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