[Sca-cooks] Re: Reply on Filo/baklava was Around the Mediterranean...

[Huette von Ahrens]

Thank you for doing all this!  I am obviously going to
have to buy all the PPC's and get copies of his
articles.

To make sure that I understand what you have said,
Charles Perry has said that his articles in the Oxford
Companion of Food are inaccurate?  It is from his
articles in there where I learned about what was used
prior to filo.

Huette


--- johnna holloway <johnna at sitka.engin.umich.edu>
wrote:
> Greetings from Johnnae llyn Lewis
>
> On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 I posted a note
> saying that there was a neat article
>  at Slow Food on the subject of filo dough at
>
>
http://www.slowfood.com/Slowfood_UpLoad/Riviste/SLOW/EN/23/phylo.html.
> The reason I thought this was a neat article
> was that it showed photos and described the
> traditional process
> of making phylo dough by hand which is becoming a
> lost art.
> (My great grandmother could roll noodles thin enough
> to read
> a newspaper through. I don't have that touch. Few do
> these days.)
> It also mentioned the work of Charles Perry.
>
> Huette von Ahrens then posted on Mon, 22 Apr 2002 :>
> > > Interesting.  Because Charles Perry in his entry
> on
> > > filo doesn't exactly say that.  He traces filo
> back to
> > > the kitchens of the Topkopi in Istambul [late
> 16th
> > > century], but states that baklava predates filo.
>  He
> > > traces baklava back to Azerbaijan, but states
> that
> > > they used thin pancakes or thinly sliced bread.
> > >
> > > This is why you should be very very careful of
> web
> > > sites.  This website in this case is giving
> > > mis-information.> >
> > > Huette
>
> ------------
> Quite frankly I didn't see the problem with article
> that
> Huette did and I did not ever remember reading that
> "thin
> pancakes or thinly slicely breads" were used. I
> clearly
> remembered that his earlier papers were connected
> with how
> the doughs for Persian pasta and noodles were
> transformed
> over time, so I started a scholarly investigation.
> I reread Huette's post, I reread The Slow Food
> article
> carefully and then I read the Oxford Companion to
> Food entries
> on "filo" and "baklava" which Charles Perry wrote
> for that work.
> Having followed his work beginning with its first
> appearance in
> PPC back in 1980,  I then reread all the various PPC
> issues
> that contained his various articles on this subject
> to date;
> also I reread his Oxford Conference papers on the
> subject that
> he has written through the years. I also reread his
> paper "The
> Taste for Layered Bread among the Nomadic Turks and
> the Central
> Asian Origins of Baklava" which was originally given
> at a 1992
> conference and then rewritten for publication in the
> volume
> edited by Zubaida and Tapper as Culinary Cultures of
> the Middle East.
>
> Having reread all this material, I then wrote to
> Charles Perry and
> asked him the following two questions:
>
> >"Does the Slow Food article misrepresent your work
> and do
> >you really feel that they used "thin pancakes or
> thinly
> >sliced bread" to make the archaic form of baklava
> that
> >was made in Azerbaijan?"
> >
> >He wrote back yesterday and said:
> >
> >"Dear Johanna,
> >        I don't think that Aglaia misrepresents my
> position,
> though she's reluctant, like most Greeks, to give
> the Turks any credit
> for inventing filo. "
>
> As for the question regarding whether or not
>  as Huette wrote "the primitive Azerbaijani baklava
> is made from "thin
> pancakes or thinly sliced bread,"
> he replied that this was a mistake  in that
> " It is made from thin sheets of
> stiffly kneaded dough; as you say, much like noodle
> paste."
>
> I didn't ask for permission to quote the rest of his
> letter
> including the more detailed discussion and I won't
> do so here. Most
> of his points are clearly laid out in the Culinary
> Cultures paper.
> There he states that there were thin doughs
> (although not paper thin)
> being used prior to the development of filo in the
> Topkapi Palace
> kitchens. The archaic form of baklava called  Baki
> pakhlavasi
> that was made by the Azabayjanis was a layered
> pastry of 15 layers,
> consisting of 8  noodle thick dough layers with 7 of
> nut filling.
> The Ottoman kitchens combined their skills with this
> archaic dish
> and came up with the paper thin dough now known as
> filo
> and this has led in turn to modern baklava.
>
> Hope this helps clear up some of the questions.
>
> Johnna Holloway  Johnnae llyn Lewis
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/sca-cooks


=====
Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they
shall never cease to be amused.

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Games - play chess, backgammon, pool and more
http://games.yahoo.com/