[Sca-cooks] Rotten meat and spices...

[David Friedman]

>--- David Friedman <ddfr at daviddfriedman.com> wrote:
>>>  I'm not sure if you are saying that you have references in period
>>  books or in modern books to the practice.
>
>
>I was saying that I had references in period books, as do others who 
>have the same books.
>However, it appears to be a matter of interpretation by the 
>reader/translator as to whether they
>wish to read 'bad' or 'spoiled' as a negative.
>
>>  That leaves you with one recipe for purifying liquamen and the
>>  suggestion that spoiled honey can be sold by mixing it with good
>>  honey. No reference to dealing with spoiled meat by spicing it.
>
>I would redirect you to the text of my original post, in which I 
>*thought* I made it fairly clear
>that there are references to food adulteration in general.

But you did so after making your assertion about the existence of 
plenty of proof that off or putrid meat was made edible with the 
copious addition of spices or seasonings. It was that assertion, not 
the claim that at various times in the past food was sometimes 
adulterated, that people were questioning.

>The original idea was to give the
>author in question a starting point from which to research the 
>'myth' that medieval cooks overly
>spiced spoiled meats, not to prove the fact with a few hurried 
>references from Apicius.  The
>original intent was to offer nothing more than a precedent from 
>which the author could begin her
>research, include in her research, or ignore completely. 
>
>As I explained earlier, I am not in a mood to engage in a 
>competition to back up my 'theory' with
>endless references which will doubtless be discredited by people who 
>have absolutely no expertise
>in the subject matter.  I just don't feel like putting that much 
>effort into it.  If you don't
>trust Vehling, or your favorite authors don't trust Vehling (and you 
>by parasitic extension), then
>ignore him and offer up your own references.

You can easily enough check Vehling against the Latin original, or 
find someone who knows some Latin to do so. Examples have been 
offered on this list in the distant past, and I provided one in the 
post you are responding to.

I did offer up my own references, in the post you are responding 
to--the Flowers and Rosenbaum translations of the same recipes that 
you quoted from Vehling. As I pointed out in that post, they provide 
no support for your claim about spoiled meat, and only one supports 
your claim about adulteration of food.

>  I, personally, would like to see someone find
>evidence that this practice was *not* common in medieval Europe.  I 
>have yet to see anyone point
>to a reference which claims that this was never done.  In fact, if 
>the general consensus is that
>this *was* a common practice (and by general consensus I mean the 
>layman's widely held belief),
>then doesn't it fall upon the theory's detractors to provide proof 
>to the contrary??  Where are
>the references pointing to the fact that medieval cooks *never* used 
>copious spicing to make bad
>meat edible??

You are asking people to prove a negative. The usual way of disputing 
a historical assertion is to ask for evidence that it is true. We 
have done so. Your response is that there is lots of evidence--and 
you are unwilling to take the trouble to offer any of it. The fact 
that many laymen believe something isn't support for "the existence 
of plenty of proof," which is what you claimed.

The arguments against the claim are pretty straightforward, and have 
already been made.

1. Spices were expensive, so adding lots of spice to spoiled meat 
would cost more than throwing it out and butchering another animal.

2. Adding spices to spoiled meat might cover up the taste but would 
result in the same risk of food poisoning as not adding spices, so 
would not be a sensible thing to do.

3. In an agricultural society, animals can be slaughtered as 
needed--and we have a detailed description of the mechanics of 
running a feast, including buying many of the animals live, in _Du 
Fait de Cuisine_.

4. No one in discussions such as this has come up with any medieval 
texts that advise people to hide the taste of spoiled meat with 
spices--although we do have sources that give advice on a variety of 
food related issues, including how to deal with spoiled meat.

>Anyway, I'm done with this.  Forget I mentioned anything at all. 
>There are references to it out
>there, but someone else will have to find them.

You made a confident assertion. When questioned, you failed to 
provide any support for it. That is an interesting fact, although not 
about food history--why should I forget it?
-- 
David/Cariadoc
www.daviddfriedman.com