[Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise

Fri Apr 22 13:53:56 PDT 2005

Also sprach el2iot2 at mail.com:
>I know it is controversial, but I suppost my position. I have 
>studied extensively on the topic, and am ordained clergy.
>
>so, if you disagree or even if you agree, I will debate religious 
>doctrine with anyone who so wishes.  But not here. Personal 
>conversation, off=line is always welcome. 
>
>Joy
>Radei

Uh huh. Thank you for your magnanimous consideration, but it wasn't 
my intention to debate anything with anyone or even to respond to 
what you wrote. I merely answered a civil question in what I hope was 
a more-or-less civil manner.

As for being ordained clergy, I'm glad to hear it, but the ease with 
which such a credential can be obtained is such that it's scarcely 
worth mentioning in this context.

To be honest, I suspect you're looking for an argument, and I'm not interested.

Adamantius

>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Phil Troy / G. Tacitus Adamantius" <adamantius.magister at verizon.net>
>To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at ansteorra.org>
>Subject: [Sca-cooks] RE: Cannibalism , ritualistic or otherwise
>Date: Thu, 21 Apr 2005 23:15:26 -0400
>
>>
>>  Also sprach <kingstaste at mindspring.com>:
>>  > Ana wrote:
>>  >>  Ana
>>  >>  PS: And the Eucharisty is a good example or ritual cannibalism.
>>  >
>>  > to which Huette responded quite strongly:
>>  >> I am sorry, but you are very, very, very WRONG!!!! The Eucharist is NOT
>>  > ritual cannibalism!!!
>>  >> Huette
>>  >
>>  >	Well, I had to think long and hard about responding to this 
>>one.  I take it
>>  > from Huette's response that she is a Christian of strong belief.  I
>>  > generally shy away from getting into religious conversations because that
>>  > way lies madness (and usually hurt feelings).  My initial 
>>reaction was "but
>>  > it is", and then thought that if that was all I said it would be fanning
>>  > those flames and it would turn into a shouting match really 
>>quickly.  I had
>>  > to stop and consider if it was really food related, and I think 
>>it is.  That
>>  > original communion took place at a supper, where there was actual food
>>  > present, or at least that is the accepted story now.  Having studied a bit
>>  > about religious origins and knowing how things get changed 
>>around, I suspect
>>  > there are many other interpretations of what actually happened.  I suspect
>>  > the symbology goes back to the examples Phlip stated and the ideals of
>>  > passing strength (and holiness) along with the consumption of various
>>  > aspects of the godhead.  This certainly seems to be what is 
>>happening in the
>>  > modern celebration of communion.  However, if the arugment is that this
>>  > ceremony is not ritual cannibalism, then there is some other reason for
>>  > taking in wine and bread and considering it a holy act.  The holiness is
>>  > passed along into the act of sharing the food.
>>  >	So, I am interested in hearing thoughts on the original event, the
>>  > symbology behind it, how the idea of breaking bread at a 
>>communal table fits
>>  > into it, and other food-related aspects of the question. 
>>However, I do hope
>>  > that it can be kept from becoming a religious flame war, as nothing will
>>  > come of that in the furtherance of understanding eating practices and the
>>  > reasons they figure strongly into spiritual observances.   Let's keep it
>>  > civil, shall we, and try to examine this question in a way that we can all
>>  > learn something?
>>
>>  It should be noted that I'm probably a heretic, but here goes anyway.
>>
>>  My feeling is that the cannibalism aspect is of secondary
>>  importance to the sacrificial aspect. I'm not troubled by a lack of
>>  faith in such mysterious phenomena as Transubstantiation because I
>>  don't consider the question relevant: I don't _need_ to believe
>>  that that bread and wine are flesh and blood to believe that good
>>  is stronger than evil, that love is stronger than death, and that
>>  sacrifice under the right circumstances can expiate sin.
>>
>  > The Liturgies of the Word and of the Eucharist are full of
>>  references to the Lamb of God, to the Paschal Sacrifice given to
>>  humanity to return to God in atonement for sin. The Eucharist
>>  liturgy also refers to eating the flesh and blood of Christ, or,
>>  rather, to Jesus referring to the bread and wine as his body and
>>  blood (presumably knowing full well he was to be the centerpiece of
>>  a human sacrifice). He points out that these are given freely for
>>  the salvation of humankind, and tells his disciples to commemorate
>>  the sacrifice in his name. He doesn't exactly say, "Eat human flesh
>>  and drink blood on Sundays," or even, unequivocally, that
>>  subsequent celebrations of the Eucharist have to involve
>>  consecration and transubstantiation. These are aspects introduced
>>  by literal-minded popes and theologians, I assume.
>>
>>  As Phlip said, there's also an aspect of sharing in the divinity of
>>  the sacrifice akin to some cultures' view of cannibalism. But
>>  without that sacrifice, the rest doesn't follow: Jesus is the
>>  sacrificial offering, and the disciples, and later, the church, are
>>  there to share in and commemorate the sacrifice.
>>
>>  Hey, did anybody eat Aslan??? Huh? Argue me that one! ;-)
>>
>>  Adamantius
>>  -- "S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils  mangent de
>>  la brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let
>>  them eat cake!"
>>	-- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques Rousseau,
>>  "Confessions", 1782
>>
>>  "Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
>>	-- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry 
>>Holt, 07/29/04
>>
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>
>
>
>joy
>
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-- 

"S'ils n'ont pas de pain, vous fait-on dire, qu'ils  mangent de la 
brioche!" / "If there's no bread to be had, one has to say, let them 
eat cake!"
	-- attributed to an unnamed noblewoman by Jean-Jacques 
Rousseau, "Confessions", 1782

"Why don't they get new jobs if they're unhappy -- or go on Prozac?"
	-- Susan Sheybani, assistant to Bush campaign spokesman Terry 
Holt, 07/29/04