[Sca-cooks] Re: Chickens in Hochee

Wed Jun 1 13:08:34 PDT 2005

--- Sheila McClune <smcclune at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Looking back at the 
> original recipe, the serving instructions simply say, "/Messe hem & cast 
> (th)erto powdour dowce."/  I don't have access to an OED, so I can't 
> look it up, but to me, the term "messe" does not imply a tidy, intact 
> chicken... :)  I could be off-base on this, but it is another possibility. 
> 
> Just a thought,
> Arwen

I believe you are off-base here.  There is a huge entry of mess as a noun, which has a lot
of meanings.  However, the use here is as a verb, which means to portion it out and serve it

Mess, v.

1. a. trans. To serve up (food); to divide or measure out (ingredients or portions). Also with
forth, up. Now Sc. and Eng. regional (north.). 

  a1425 (1399) Forme of Cury 179 in C. B. Hieatt & S. Butler Curye on Inglysch (1985) 138 Bake it
vp with eurose, & messe it forthe. a1450 in T. Austin Two 15th-cent. Cookery-bks. (1888) 30 
Florche it a-bouyn with Pome-garned & messe it; serue it forth. 1530 J. PALSGRAVE Lesclarcissement
635/1, I messe meate, I sorte it or order it in to messes, as cookes do whan they serve it.

Your definition of mess is a noun and is 19th Century:

3. a. fig. A situation or state of affairs that is confused or presents numerous difficulties; a
troubled or embarrassed state or condition; a predicament. 

  1812 T. CREEVEY Let. 4 June in Creevey Papers (1903) I. 164 Wellesley..was as good as turned out
of Carlton House when he went back with Grey's refusal..and this accounts for the ‘violent 
personal objections’ which he describes Prinney as having to Grey... It is a rare mess, by God!
1819 KEATS Let. 17 Sept. (1958) II. 186 My name with the literary fashionables is vulgar..a 
Tragedy would lift me out of this mess. 1844 H. STEPHENS Bk. of Farm II. 165 The London
butcher..will..reject such cattle or sheep as are what is termed in a mess; that is, depressed,
after excitation by being overlaid or overdriven. 1891 S. C. SCRIVENER Our Fields & Cities 173 But
never mind, Charlie boy, keep out of messes. 1949 N. MARSH Swing, Brother, Swing ix. 211 There's
one thing..that's sticking out of this mess like a road-sign and I can't read it. 1994 Daily Mail
29 Sept. 9/1 He helped me..out of a terrible mess when I hadn't got a clue which way to turn.

    b. A dirty or untidy state of things or of a place; a collection of disordered things,
producing such a state. 

  1826 ‘W. T. MONCRIEFF’ Tom & Jerry III. v. 97 Log. You never use any chalk here? Turn.... It
makes such a mess all over the walls. 1851 H. MAYHEW London Labour II. 173/1 They make it a rule
when they receive neither beer nor money from a house to make as great a mess as possible the next
time they come. 1867 W. H. SMYTH Sailor's Word-bk., Mess,..the state of a ship in a sudden squall,
when everything is let go and flying. 1917 J. MASEFIELD Old Front Line v. 67 All this mess of 
heaps and hillocks is strung and filthied over with broken bodies and ruined gear. 1939 Archit.
Rev. 85 213 Where hand-mixing [of plaster] is carried out the mess and waste that are inevitable
when plaster is mixed on ‘banker-boards’ and then transferred to ‘spot-boards’ should be avoided
where possible. 1985 M. SACHS Fat Girl ii. 11 It's a great house, but it's kind of a mess because
Mrs Jenkins isn't much of a housekeeper.

    c. to make a mess of: (a) to bungle or badly mishandle (an undertaking); (b) to put into a
disordered, dirty, or otherwise imperfect state. 

  1834 F. MARRYAT Peter Simple III. x. 131 We then talked over the attack of the privateer, in
which we were beaten off. ‘Ah!’ replied the aide-de-camp, ‘you made a mess of that.’ 1862 C. 
DARWIN in Life & Lett. (1887) II. 392, I am rejoiced that I passed over the whole subject in the
‘Origin’, for I should have made a precious mess of it. 1883 R. BROUGHTON Belinda II. III. ii. 186
‘For Heaven's sake, do not try!’ says Belinda, in serious dissuasion, ‘or you will be sure to make
a mess of it!’ 1958 J. CAREW Wild Coast ii. 22 Boy, if you kill all the hardbacks that come in 
here you will make a mess of my clean floor. 1966 E. WILSON Diary 17 Nov. in L. Dabney Sixties
(1993) 556, I had managed..to tell him [sc. W. H. Auden]..that his anthology of minor
nineteenth-century verse had been made a mess of. 1995 N. BLINCOE Acid Casuals xxvii. 208 You made
a right fucking mess of my car, John Quay. I don't care to think about the fucking repair bill.

    d. colloq. A person who is dirty or untidy in appearance; (fig.) a person whose life or 
affairs are disorganized, esp. due to the influence of drink or drugs used habitually; an
ineffectual or incompetent person. 

  1891 C. WORDSWORTH Rutland Words s.v., She's a poor mess. She can't go out to sarvice: she's a
weakly mess. 1936 M. MITCHELL Gone with Wind I. vi. 122 ‘Oh,’ thought Scarlett... ‘To have that
mealy-mouthed little mess take up for me!’ 1938 E. BOWEN Death of Heart I. ii. 40 From what you
say, her mother was quite a mess. 1965 M. SPARK Mandelbaum Gate iv. 104 These were lapsed Jews,
lapsed Arabs, lapsed citizens, runaway Englishmen, dancing prostitutes, international messes. 1979
E. HARDWICK Sleepless Nights iv. 5 She began..to speak of her son. A mess... Drugs?... Of course.
1987 T. WOLFE Bonfire of Vanities (1988) iv. 98 His hair felt like a bird's nest. He was a mess.
1990 J. EBERTS & T. ILOTT My Indecision is Final lvii. 615 He was mentally destroyed by December.
He was a mess. He was exhausted.

    e. colloq. (euphem.). Excrement, esp. that of an animal deposited in an inappropriate place.
Esp. in to make a mess. 

  1903 Eng. Dial. Dict., Mess, Ordure, the quantity of dung excreted at one time. 1928 R. KIPLING
Limits & Renewals (1932) 50 It's [sc. a dog] made a mess in the corner. 1939 A. HUXLEY After Many 
a Summer I. x. 138 A lovely stinking little baby who still made messes in its bed. 1940 N. MITFORD
Pigeon Pie ix. 144 Perhaps, she thought, the bird wants to go out... It made a mess on her skirt.
1986 U. HOLDEN Tin Toys (1987) ii. 19, I wasn't allowed to look at dogs' messes on the roadside.

    f. colloq. (chiefly U.S.). Nonsense, rubbish; insolence, abuse. 

  1937 in Weevils in Wheat (1976) 4 You don' have ter take dat mess offen him. 1966 R. PRICE
Generous Man (1967) i. 13 You set there talking mess while my dog is suffering and dying maybe.
1998 Sported! 12 Mar. 5/1 Lezza believes completely in his own abilities and hates answering daft
reporters' questions. He won't take any mess from anybody.

Huette

Remember that while money talks, chocolate sings.

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