[Sca-cooks] FW: [TY] Re: Medieval and/or Middle Eastern Recipies containing Tomatoes

[kingstaste at mindspring.com]

This just keeps getting better and better....
Christianna

-----Original Message-----
From: meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com [mailto:meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Kinjal of Moravia
Sent: Sunday, May 15, 2005 4:13 PM
To: meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [TY] Re: Medieval and/or Middle Eastern Recipies containing
Tomatoes


--- In meridian-ty at yahoogroups.com, <kingstaste at m...> wrote:
>
> Kinjal,
>   You wrote:
> However, that is not the extent of either 'medieval' or SCA
cooking.
> I fully agree that any recipe submitted in period competition from
> these listed areas should be 'suspect', while all of these cultures
> regulary offer dishes as 'medieval' with tomatoes -- it is
> definitional, perhaps -- but also indicative of 'available
> substititutes'.
>
>
>      You refer above to the documentation I sent regarding Western
European sources and the appearance of tomatoes after the discovery
of the New World, and the fact that there are no recipes for
tomatoes other than some very late-period ones in Italy and Spain
until the late 1690's.  I am confused
> therefore to your reference to "all of these cultures
> regulary offer dishes as 'medieval' with tomatoes".  I know of no
recipes in any of these cultures that contain anything that
resembles a tomato within the medieval period.

>>>> any search on medieval and tomato will produce dozens of
recipies containing tomatoes and many restaurants offering 'medieval
dishes', many with tomatoes.  WHile SCA definition of medieval does
not necessarily agree with common definitions, it is reasonal to
assume that a non-SCAdian person writing and lining tomatoes and
medieval cooking represents a 'common view' whether correct or not.


>  You go on to state:
> Mid-Eastern and East-Asian recipies however, should be allowed to
> contain 'tomato like' ingredience for period dishes. Please note --
> I do not claim that the 'vegatable/fruit/berry' they used is
> identical to what we now consider the 'tomato'. Many food items
used in ancient times have been replaced with better, modern
> alternatives.  African sources indicate knowledge of
both 'tomatoes'and 'peanuts' in pre-Columbian times.  Views are
mixed as to whether this indicated early travel between the
continents, or that common food items were used that 'resembled or
equated' these new items and have been replaced by the better
strains.
>
>
Again, I have to ask which sources you are citing.

The let us back up.  The original question was about whether a
tomato dish could be considered medieval, with some referemce to
Columbus -- but no documentation.  As I have knowledge of Turkish
culture and cooking that indicated that tomatoes were used in
medieval times and much earlier, and offered the opinion that
toitmato dishes could be medieval, but only if one looked to
Anatolia.  I had now reason to doubt my teachers any more than you
asked your grandmother where she learned to crack eggs when making
pound cake.

Next came undocumented responses with universal claims that "no
medieval dish had tomatoes" and the like.  Now to counteract such a
universal statement no extensive documentation is required -- only a
single example, which I gave from the Turkish Ministry of Culture.

Next came claims and documentation that this could not be true
because some collection of cookbooks didn't include any such
recipies, indicating that tomatoes were not used in England and
Central Europe, but make no reference to Turkish cooking, one of the
three 'grand cuisines' of the world.

I took the time to start researching -- hoping to find some of my
original sources of three years ago when I did document a period
Turkish recipe for competition.  I found all sort of new lines of
thoughts to share with all here who are interested -- expecting that
they also are doing research.  It is not my job to teach people how
to do a Google search.  I have offered enough ideas that should
encourage people to look at the 'tomato guestion' more closely.  I
don't care about the outcome -- the excitiement of the hunt in
medieval inquiry is its own reward.  I am not trying to 'prove' that
tomatoes of the Peruvian variety were used in Europe in the middle
ages.  I will, however attempt to counter universal claims based on
restricted evidence in all SCA matters -- cooking, weapons, archery,
etc.

If I decide to enter another Turkish dish in competition I will
research and provide suitable documentation.  What I don't want is
for some "knowledgeble judge' to rule it 'non-period' out of hand
because of popular held opinions.

I will be happy to share any valid sources I find with you off-list,
but reserve the right to provide interesting info to the membership
general that might inspire research in a completely new area.

For the moment I will accept the word of the Turkish governemnt over
some European food critic.  If you have evidence that they are
fabricating these claims, please let me know.  "Domatesli" is a
Turkish word meaning "with tomatoes" as in "Domatesli Pilav".
Turkey is one othe largest producers of tomatoes in the world -- and
I am sure they are all recognizable varieties now, either hybreds or
imports -- but in medieval times we don't know -- which is why I
counter the universal claim.

I am admittedly biased here, long upset by the 'historic lies'I was
taught in school about Eastern cultures.  While SCA is
about 'recreation, rather than 'reenactment' I still wish for
accuracy in all aspects of medieval history that effects SCA --
cooking is but a minor part.


> kinjal




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