[Sca-cooks] how green is 'grene'?

[Laura C. Minnick]

Ok, so I posted the question of the 'grene' grapes to the Chaucerian crowd, 
and got some very interesting replies- here's a few- and the the one that I 
think is the winner:

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Raises the question of what white wine and "white" grapes were called back 
then.

[someone mentioned this- Urtatim?-yesterday, white or black grapes, I think 
it was]
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The MED definition of grene adj. 3. (a) Of fruit, vegetables, etc.: unripe, 
immature, sour; of wine: new.
Liber cure cocorum. (Sloan MS. 1986) is not cited.

[Which is to say that LCC is not cited as a use of the 'grene' as to mean 
unripe. Which doesn't mean it didn't, but it is not noted as such.]
_____
So are those herbes green, satisfying, sexually passionate, colorless, a 
healing ointment, new, vigorous, or full of youthful folly?

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 >From the MED:

Green:  To satisfy (sb); ~with, come to terms with (sb); refl.  Agree to 
(sth.), be pleased (to do sth.);

Grene:
A grassy place, a field, the ground, the green earth; village or town 
green; in surnames and place hames; green cloth, green garments; fren 
plants; the color green; green pigment.

Desire, sexual passion.

Green, of the colour of grass; of the skin or complexion: green; also, 
pale, colorless, livid; as symbolic of inconstancy or envy; cloth, the 
green-covered table in the counting house in the royal residence; the 
office dealing with royal household expenses; a money chest belonging to 
the royal counting house; the European green finch; a sauce made from green 
herbs, spices and wine

An ointment used on wounds to clean them and promote growth of new flesh, 
the green color being due either to the herbs used or to the verdigris 
mixed in; a name for sophic mercury, apparently an acid for attacking 
metals, turning green through dissolving copper compounds present as 
impurities; verdigris; ferrous sulphate

In surnames and place names

With green leaves; newly, freshly.

Erthe

Grin(e.

Gren(e)hede    Also gredide.  [From grene  adj.]

Greeness of color; fresh vigor of plants; also fig.; moistness of wood; 
youthful folly; in surname.

[Amusing, to say the least]
_____
I looked through my medieval cookbooks and found a "black grape" sauce
and as I read it, it does mean grapes that are black in color.

OTOH, in another book there is definition for an ingredient called
"verjus":  "Vinegar and unripe grapes (whose juice and whose seeds
preserved in salt were both called verjuice --_verjus_--and were
flavorings of paramount importance) could be kept in store for several
months.  Cooks also used young wine, produced within the past year, and
took care to have it in good supply."  So here is clearly grapes that
were green with "green" meaning unripe, no matter what color they might
have been destined to be when ripe.

[Not sure what that might mean, since verjus is not mentioned in the recipe...]
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AND NOW, FOR OUR WINNER TODAY!:

It occurs to me that if you set out the recipe as the rhymes suggest, you
may decide that the colour and ripeness of the grapes are a matter of
choice.

Chekyns in browet.
Take chekyns, scalde hom fayre and clene.
Take persole, sauge, oþer herb3 grene,
Grapus, and stope þy chekyns with wynne.
Take goode brothe, sethe hom þerinne,
So þat þay sone boyled may be.
Coloure þe brothe with safrone fre,
And cast þeron powder dowce,
For to be served in goode mennys howse.

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It had not occurred to me that the recipe might be arranged thusly- but 
dang, it fits! Which solves my question- because the 'grene' modifies the 
herbs, not the grapes! So maybe next time I'll use red grapes, which IMO 
are tastier, and worry more about my dessert!

'Lainie
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"No people can be great who have ceased to be virtuous."
Samuel Johnson: An Introduction To The Political State of Great Britain