[Sca-cooks] "the Coopers" was Pennsic history

[Daniel Phelps]

I wrote:

Yes and they have reportedly done very well by their  relationship with SCA.
A fact that I do not begrudge by the way.   However some of their reported
actions in past years I do take issue  with.

Was responded to:

I don't think they've done nearly as well as people think.  I mean, if  they
are so well off why, when one of them got a "new house" a few years ago,
was
it a new double-wide trailer???  If Pennsic made them so wealthy,  surely
they
could have afforded to build a house.

My reply:

How well off they may or may not be is not in my opinion germane to the
discussion. I only brought it up to say that some people seem to think that
they are and that such a belief, be it true or not, I hold irrelevant and
thus such a belief did not affect what I was going to write.

I will say that when the 25th Year site consideration was under way  I
understand that they declined to have the site considered as it reportedly
would have necessitated a degree of disclosure that they were unwilling to
provide.  Such was their right.  But it did make me wonder at the time.

Was written:

They do not gouge the SCA nor the people  who attend
Pennsic.

My reply:

Well... I would not go that far  as for example I recall the reported hay
controversy of some years  back.

Was responded to:

Don't know about any hay controversy and I've been going for 16  years.

If I recall correctly it happened a couple of years before that.  As I said
my experiences were a few years back.

Was written:

They don't raise the prices in their  store.

My reply:

Yes but reportedly they have protected their  sales monopoly on certain
items
of necessity over the years by actively  attempting to discourage people
from
buying at a lower price elsewhere and  bringing in items, such as hay bales,
for personal  use.

My understanding on the hay bale thing is that you are to buy them from the
Coopers because that way they know which camps will have hay that needs
cleaned  up at the end of war.  Since it's a real pain to clean up, I think
that's
reasonable.

My reply:

That was indeed the argument made at the time.  It would seem to me that
such an issue could be addressed in a manner which would not require the
retention of their monopoly.  Perhaps I am wrong.

Was further written:

Certainly, even though they sell firewood and food in their
store, they also allow ads to be placed for other people that sell firewood
and
food, on their premises and even in the site book.

That is indeed quite reasonable of them and I will not speculate as to if
they make money on such items sold on their land as it is indeed their land,
i.e. their ball and their bat and they have a right to make what ever rules
they want as to how the game is played.  Anyone, such as myself, may not
like the way things have gone in the past and if our distaste is strong
enough we can choose not to come back.  That is our right.

Was  written:

They have gone
out
of their way to add facilities (such  as an ATM, an on-site bank and post
office), additional water lines, etc.,  to benefit our event.  This has
caused their taxes to be raised and  they pay much more each time they
improve their property so that we can  get to the far parking lot, have
camp sites, and so on.   >>>

My reply:

In my opinion such was purely a business  decision brought on by the need to
expand facilities to handle the increase  attendance.  Having served in the
public sector in a regulatory  capacity and holding a master's degree in
Environmental Management, I  suspect that some of these improvements were
most probably required by  environmental and health regulations at the
county
and state  level.

Was replied:

They don't have to keep expanding to suit us.  The site is private
property;
it would be perfectly within their rights to tell us that they are  capping
the event at 10,000 people and once that many are signed up, nobody else
can
come in.  Instead, they keep renting and buying and clearing more land  for
us,
most of it land that is NEVER used the rest of the year.  The ATM,  onsite
bank, and post office are certainly not required by any environmental or
health
regs, and while the ATM is probably useful the rest of the year, the bank
and post office are only there for Pennsic.  As far as the water lines, my
husband was up there once in the off season and found Dave digging up all
the
half inch piping and replacing it with 3/4 inch; Dave told him he figured he
might as well do it since he was working in that area anyway.  It wasn't
necessary, just something that might make things a little better.

My reply:

These are business decisions that they have made.  It is their land and
their business and they have a right to make what ever business decisions
they see as in their best interest.  They have allowed the event to continue
to expand.   Having decided to do so they have made the necessary
improvements either because they thought such was a good idea or because
environmental and health regulations required it.  Business is business...
pure and simple.

I further wrote:

Ok  all that being said I attended Pennsic for quite a number of years
before
I  stopped merchanting.  My observations of the actions of "blue shirts"  in
those years were not, shall we say, universally  positive.

Was responded to:

Nor are all the actions of all those who attend Pennsic and sometimes  even
those who run Pennsic on the SCA side.  We're all human.  Much of  what I've
seen as "restrictive" actions on the part of the Coopers has been in
response
to boneheaded or at least potentially seriously dangerous stuff done by  us.

My response:

Indeed you are quite correct in your assessment that people are liable to
err.  Rules must be made to address safety concerns.  Ours is a litigious
society so decisions must be made to limit liability.  If one doesn't like
the rules "the Coopers" have made one doesn't need to attend Pennsic.

I further wrote:

It is also my
belief that certain elements of  "the Coopers" actively  attempted to
squelch
the site of the 25th Year Celebration.  I gained  this opinion from personal
conversations at the time with certain non-SCA  personnel, i.e. a public
official in one case, who were connected with the  site negotiations from
the
other side.

I also heard, although I  admit that this is hearsay and not based on direct
personal knowledge,  that  "the Coopers" attempted to squelch the site for
"Gulf Wars"  early on.

Was written:

I find that extremely hard to believe,

May reply:

It is your right to believe what you wish.   All I can tell you is what I
personally know to be true and what I believe to be true.  Regards 25th year
I recall the conversation with that public official after the event quite
vividly.  Regards Gulf Wars I really on believe what others have told me.

Was further written:

but I can well believe such a rumor
got started by someone in the SCA who didn't like how the Coopers handled
something they wanted to do.

My reply:

Yes there are indeed such people in this world.   For the record, I am not
one of them.

Was further written:

According to some people, you'd think the  Coopers
were collectively the embodiment of evil greedy slime.  Why they  keep
paying
such evil people to come to Pennsic I don't know.  If I thought  someone was
that unfair and nasty, I'd think about 20  times before paying  them money
and
putting myself on their property and under their rules for my  vacation.

Indeed while I would not go so far as to characterize them in the manner you
have described I personally made the decision quite a few years back that my
distaste had indeed exceeded my tolerance level.  I have not been back in
quite some years.  In a few years I may indeed attend again to see how
things have changed as I understand that quite a few things have been added
on the A/S front.

Ok all that being said I think that this discussion is likely to provide a
bit more heat and very little light if it is continued in this forum and as
this forum is devoted to food perhaps we might wish to return to that
subject.  If anyone wishes to continue this discussion off list I will be
happy to oblige.

Your humble servant,

Daniel