[Sca-cooks] Burger Battle
Suey
lordhunt at gmail.com
Sun Jan 21 16:41:18 PST 2007
Volker Bach wrote:
> If it originated in Persia, how do we get t Roman 'Isicia'?
>
> I'd suspect rather that once you have leftover meat and chop it, you'll find
> out fairly soon that it can be made into balls, patties or meatloaf. Asking
> who invented it makes as much sense as asking who invented pancakes.
>
It is really quite simple. First of all the Roman's introduced
everything to all of Europe but in Spain at least the Vandals and the
Visigoths were barbarians who overthrew Spain and forgot all that. The
Arabs actually never invented anything but copied the best of all the
worlds they conquered so they used the Spanish weeds called asparagus
growing in wild in that country and reintroduced many other Roman
innovations. They wrote a lot so as hamburgers, they 'invented' them
when indeed our colleague found the hamburger seems to be documented in
Roman Isicia.
I am with you that hamburger could have been a cave man invention
but not leftovers until the 20th century when dentistry could prevent
tooth decay. One of the most ridiculous movies I saw in my life was
Henry VIII eating roast beef off a bone. Now tell me how is he going to
do that in the 16th Century when people had few teeth after the age of 20?
So my Spanish medieval recipes are chop. chop, chop, mince, mince,
mince once the animal is hung overnight to get rid of the evil spirits!
Who invented pancakes? Of course the Arabs cause they claim to be
the first to write that down! Catalina di Medicis only took them to
France cause the Spaniards got the recipe out of Al Andalus and took it
to their domains in Italy. The French invented nothing. Their best
recipes came from Persia via Cordoba of course!
By the way I am told there are very bad feelings about Arab people
in the states right now. :-! ? I hope you people understand that most
Spaniards have Arab blood because of the long occupation of those people
in Spain. They understand Arabs much better than any other European
country as well as Israel as they have a lot of Jewish blood as well. I
have close ties with many and very fine friends from Northern Africa and
the Middle East who are better educated and more cultured than I. Being
able to call these people friends is a privilege for me and of course
thanks to their occupation in Al Andalus we are able to trace some of
the finest recipes in the world.
Susan
> YIS
>
> Giano
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________
> Der fr?he Vogel f?ngt den Wurm. Hier gelangen Sie zum neuen Yahoo! Mail: http://mail.yahoo.de
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:11:08 -0500
> From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] jetro/rest. depot
> To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID:
> <c8c0c5d20701211511pd0ea889w7d4d321de75c3c56 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I'll check, but the last time I looked (admittedly a year ago), all they had
> was a listing of their store locations...nothing about what they carried or
> prices. Thanks though for the idea!
>
> Kiri
>
> On 1/21/07, Maggie MacDonald <maggie5 at cox.net> wrote:
>
>> At 04:58 AM 1/21/2007,Elaine Koogler said something like:
>>
>>> We also have a Restaurant Depot (Jetro) here...but it's too far away for
>>>
>> me
>>
>>> to make a casual trip up there to check prices for this list...but to
>>>
>> give
>>
>>> you an idea of what meat prices are there...I will be doing roast leg of
>>> lamb for my Middle Eastern feast in February...I will get boneless leg of
>>> lamb for about $2.79 per pound...which is about $2.00 less than it is in
>>>
>> the
>>
>>> stores.
>>>
>>> Kiri
>>>
>> I don't go down there to browse either, I check it via the website. If
>> it's
>> truly outstanding then I'll wander over. They aren't far, but their hours
>> can be inconvenient for my hausfrau schedule.
>> Check to see if you can do that too? I've found that once you cross
>> reference stuff, there's even aisle references for the items so you can
>> get
>> through the store (kind of) faster.
>> Cheers,
>> Maggie
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 20:13:00 -0300
> From: Suey <lordhunt at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 9, Issue 76
> To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> Message-ID: <45B3F37C.5020000 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Terry Decker wrote:
>
>> It might equally be argued that the recipe for hamburger originates in the
>> recipes for isicia from the Roman Empire. Forcemeat recipes are fairly common.
>>
> My guess is that as long as man eat meat he was chopping it grinding it
> and or stewing it the best he could due to the high rate of tooth decay
> until the 20th C. I have a very difficult time finding Spanish medieval
> recipes for roasts.
>
>> Luis Benavides-Barajas. . . I've read one
>> small modern piece by him translated into English and found the prose a
>> little florid.
>>
>> . . .in relation to the Florilegium shows that Huette
>> raised a question about the historical accuracy of his recipe for alfajores.
>>
>>
> Yes it is Luis Benavides-Barajas. I did start to read an English
> translation of one of his books but it was so bad I had to go to the
> original. I am glad to know that Huette criticized his alfajores recipe.
> I finally had to throw it out while some others really are quite good.
> Anyway it is an adventure if one tries them but I never know if they are
> authentic or modernized.
>
> Suey wrote:
>
>>> He calls it "Supremo de carne o hamburgesa andalusi" not
>>> 'albondiga'. He does distinguish the two terms clearly in his books.
>>>
>>>
> Phil Troy replied:
>
>> Would I be close if I were to translate the above into English as "meat supreme or Andalusian hamburger"? Since supremes tend to be without skin, bone, or any tough
>> fibers or portions (with certain notable exceptions, such as
>> chicken), I'm assuming he's referring to that aspect of finely
>> chopped or ground meat, although I can think of no other examples of
>> a supreme being ground, chopped, or even heavily pounded. . . a hamburger tends to contain the simplest of seasonings (often nothing but salt, and possibly black pepper), and
>> is almost invariably beef.
>> It sounds as if Sr. Benavides-Barajas is playing fast and loose with
>> his terms here. . . poetic license is great for poetry, but poetry is not the best way to
>> communicate when you absolutely need to be understood.
>>
> Benavides is calling for well ground lean meat in the "Meat Supreme"
> recipe. That is in "Nueva-Clasica." In "La Alhambra" he calls one recipe
> "Supremo de Marraquech" consisting of mutton or beef, "preparacion de la
> 'Asfarya'" (which he calls a 'type of hamburger') is for mutton and "La
> carne de caza" calls for game. The 'Asfarya' recipe is the only one
> expounding on seasonings while the others call for basics such as salt,
> pepper, garlic juice or chopped onion. His names for the recipes do
> sound a bit far fetched but then we don't know what the original recipes
> were called.
>
> Phil Troy continues:
>
>
>> Doesn't Huici-Miranda's
>> translation of Manuscrito Anonimo have a reputation as being riddled
>> with errors anyway?
>>
>>
>>
>>
> Perry certainly did chop apart Huici Miranda's translation. I find
> Perry very helpful when I have doubts with Huici's text but when working
> with the recipes I like reading both versions.
> It is interesting to note in this manuscript Perry does not call
> 'Ahras/'Ahrash' hamburgers but "patties". Huici just says they are 'like
> meatballs'. Patty in Spanish is empanadilla which is a different ball
> game. Perhaps the translation from Arabic to Spanish put Benavides on
> the spot and he took the lazy way out by using the modern word.
> I guess that brings us back to the point? Who invented the
> hamburger? The cave men or New Havenites? (Mind you my mother was born
> and raised there!)
> Susan
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:23:27 -0500
> From: "Elaine Koogler" <kiridono at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yule Celebrations
> To: grizly at mindspring.com, "Cooks within the SCA"
> <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID:
> <c8c0c5d20701211523k15b2d164yec4c9d968b828729 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I haven't made this in a long time, but my Chinese professor some years back
> declared it as good as any he ate in China. It comes from a dinky little
> Chinese cookbook I picked up back before I even knew there was an SCA!! I
> made it according to the recipe for a few times, then reworked it to taste
> (to my taste!!) more like what I found in Chinese restaurants. Here 'tis:
>
> Pork roast (or spare ribs)
> Five Spice powder
> star anise
> hoisin sauce
> honey
> sesame oil
> soy sauce
> garlic
> Chinese rice wine/sake...or if all else fails, sherry
>
> 1. Make a marinade of the five spice powder, star anise, hoisin, honey,
> sesame oil, soy sauce, garlic and rice wine. Pierce the roast with a fork
> in several places. Marinate roast or ribs for at least 8 hours (I usually
> do it overnight).
>
> 2. Put a pan of water in the oven under the rack where the roast will be
> (helps to keep meat moist.
>
> 3. Put the roast in a shallow roasting pan (I use a pyrex pan) and slather
> with hoisin.
>
> 4. Cook for 15-20 minutes, then baste with honey. Cook for another 15 - 20
> minutes and baste with hoisin. Alternate basting with honey and hoisin
> until the roast is cooked through.
>
> 5. Remove it from the oven and allow to rest for about 10 minutes before
> slicing and serving.
>
> I'm sorry that I don't know quantities...I've been making this for so long
> I've forgotten what they look like. But you're such a great cook I'm sure
> you can figure it out!
>
> Kiri
>
> On 1/21/07, Nick Sasso <grizly at mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>> Many pardons, please,
>>
>> I have been hunting around for a recipe for a good, rich, deep flavored
>> char
>> siu pork. I find a few online that could fit the bill, but I don't know
>> exactly what it is that makes the key flaroving. Could be the hoi sin, or
>> oyster flavored sauce, or even the 5 spice powder. None of the recipes I
>> find have all of them, but various combinations of them. Honey, soy and
>> ginger do seem consistant. Most indicate butt/shoulder, but I suspect
>> that
>> fresh ham or the butt end of a loin would work out just fine.
>>
>> Does anyone prepare this or have the penultimate recipe? Master A . . . I
>> figure you are a possible candidate for this pork masterpiece. You gots
>> something? I'm doing an exploratory of modern braised and slow-roasted
>> pork
>> dishes. Char siu came up, so here I am.
>>
>> pacem et bonum,
>> niccolo difrancesco
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sca-cooks mailing list
>> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org
>>
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2007 18:49:16 -0500
> From: "Ron Carnegie" <r.carnegie at verizon.net>
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yule Celebrations
> To: <grizly at mindspring.com>, "Cooks within the SCA"
> <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Message-ID: <005c01c73db6$c31d0670$8742fea9 at owner85a4f9e93>
> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
> reply-type=original
>
> I wonder why you want the penultimate recipe rather than the ultimate? Are
> you inherhently humble, do you not think yourself worthy of the best?
>
> Ranald de Balinhard
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Nick Sasso" <grizly at mindspring.com>
> To: "Cooks within the SCA" <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 21, 2007 4:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Yule Celebrations
>
>
>
>> Many pardons, please,
>>
>> I have been hunting around for a recipe for a good, rich, deep flavored
>> char
>> siu pork. I find a few online that could fit the bill, but I don't know
>> exactly what it is that makes the key flaroving. Could be the hoi sin, or
>> oyster flavored sauce, or even the 5 spice powder. None of the recipes I
>> find have all of them, but various combinations of them. Honey, soy and
>> ginger do seem consistant. Most indicate butt/shoulder, but I suspect
>> that
>> fresh ham or the butt end of a loin would work out just fine.
>>
>> Does anyone prepare this or have the penultimate recipe? Master A . . . I
>> figure you are a possible candidate for this pork masterpiece. You gots
>> something? I'm doing an exploratory of modern braised and slow-roasted
>> pork
>> dishes. Char siu came up, so here I am.
>>
>> pacem et bonum,
>> niccolo difrancesco
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Sca-cooks mailing list
>> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org
>>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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