[Sca-cooks] ISO carbonado references.

David Walddon david at vastrepast.com
Tue Sep 2 12:46:56 PDT 2008

I just did a quick scan of the 1598 Epulario and although there are  
recipes that are similar to the below they don't seem to have made it  
through with the title "Carbonata" or any of the variations into the  
Once I am able to access the library I will check the original  
Italian of the Epulario and compare it to the 1598 English  
translation to see which recipe (if any) corresponds to the Martino/ 
Platina recipes.
Any of you out there doing Spanish research that can look up  
carbonata's in the Spanish corpus?
Seems the Italian link is fairly solid.
French? Earlier French recipes with the title, techniques or  
Markham many have (as Bear suggests) got hold of a French version of  
De Honesta rather than a carbonata from an earlier French version.
Thorvald or others is it in any of the French sources?

This is a very interesting dish to trace.

Although totally different it makes me want some Pasta Carbonara!



Food is life. May the plenty that graces your table truly be a VAST  

David Walddon
david at vastrepast.com

On Sep 2, 2008, at 12:08 PM, Terry Decker wrote:

> After reading Markham, I would say the antecedents of carbonados  
> are Italian.
> Two recipes in Martino's Libro de arte coquinaria have marked  
> similarities to Markham's description, per fare carbonata di carne  
> salata and per fare brasole di carne di vitella.  Both of these  
> recipes appear in Platina, which means they would have had wide  
> dissemination in Europe, through the various translations and  
> prinitings of De Honesta Volputate and, possibly, the Epulario.  I  
> have not verified that these recipes made it into the later work.
> I haven't done anything with the veal cutlet recipe, but I have  
> adapted the carbonata recipe for feast.
> The carbonata recipe is as follows:
> Per fare carbonata, togli la carnat salata che vergellata di grasso  
> et magro enseme, et tagglia in fetta, et ponile accocere ne la  
> padella et non le lassare troppo cosere. Dapoi mittele in un  
> piatello et gettavi sopra un pocho, di succharo, un pocho di  
> cannelia, et un pocho di petrosillo tagliato menuto. Et similmente  
> poi fare di summata o prosutto, giongendoli in scambio d'aceto del  
> sucho d'aranci, o limoni, quel che piu ti placesse, et farratte  
> meglio beverre.
> To make carbonata, take salt meat layered with lean and fat, and  
> cut it in slices, and put it in a pan to cook; do not let it  
> overcook. Then put it on a plate and sprinkle it with vinegar, a  
> little sugar, a little cinnamon, and a little finely chopped  
> parsley. And you can do the same to prepare salt pork or ham, using  
> orange or lemon juice in place of vinegar, whichever you prefer; it  
> will make you drink all the better.
> Carbonata
> 8 thin slices of ham (air or salt cured for preference)
> 1 teaspoon sugar
> 1/4 teaspoon cinnamon
> 1 Tablespoon finely chopped parsley
> 3 Tablespoons wine vinegar, bitter orange juice or lemon juice
> Lightly brown the meat in an ungreased skillet and transfer to a  
> platter.
> Sprinkle the sugar, cinnamon and vinegar or juice over the meat
> or
> Stir the spices and vinegar or juice together in the skillet and  
> pour over the meat.
> Sprinkle parsley on the meat.
> Serves eight.
> In Platina the two recipes are 6.26 and 6.28.
> Bonne chance,
> Bear
>> Hi all,
>> I'm working on my article for Artes Draconis on
>> carbonadoes/carbonados/charbonados. Markham (English Housewife)  
>> states that
>> this particular cooking technique is French in its origin.
>> However, the only French reference I've been able to find is a  
>> list of foods
>> in a Francois Rabelais story from 1532.
>> There is another English reference to Spain though. (A PAGEANT  OF
>> SPANISH HUMOURS. Wherin are naturally de- / scribed and lively  
>> portrayed the
>> kinds / and quallities of a signior / of Spaine. /
>> Translated out of Dutche by H.W. /  Haud curo Inuidiam. / [imagen] /
>> Imprinted at London by [J. Windet for] Iohn Wolfe, and are to be  
>> solde at /
>> his shop in Popes-head Alley, neare to / the Exchange 1599. )
>> http://www.ehumanista.ucsb.edu/projects/spanish_black_legend/02.htm
>> "3 A signior is a woolfe at table.
>> Signior at his dyet is as a ravenous woolfe, with the one elbow  
>> leaning on
>> the table, openeth his mawe like a Judas putse. He layeth his  
>> tallants on
>> the meat like a woolfe that gripeth a lambe: he esteemes it no  
>> shame to
>> ruyne the dith and tumble the eates topsies turvie [sic], to seeke  
>> de buena
>> gana los buenas boccades, the which ell ventro del uno he  
>> purposeth to send;
>> what a signior doeth not eate, he heaeth, or unseemly myngleth. Amore
>> lickorish wretch earth doth not produce, his fare must daily be  
>> fresh, both
>> roasted and sod, besides this, he is a wonderfull devourer of   
>> olia podridos
>> and carbonadoes, togither with an infinit quantitie of fruites,  
>> comfites,
>> and boccados yet it is a hard matter if a man hath not one good  
>> qualitie, no
>> es barachono, you must not thinke so, except it [5]were a chance  
>> 8  910 .
>> This is a signiosr dyet at anothers cost, but alas if you finde  
>> him at his
>> owne table, you may see it stately furnished  with a sardinia, or a
>> crust of bread, a pot of agua, and perhaps a bone, yet abroad, if  
>> there be a
>> woolfe at the table, signior is one. "
>> And there's a brief reference in Christopher Marlowe's Tamburlaine
>> "Take it up Villaine and eat it, or I will make thee slice the  
>> brawnes of
>> thy armes into carbonadoes, and eat them."
>> I've done some extensive Google <http://www.google.com/> searching
>> with limited success except for multiple citations from Markham  
>> and links to
>> spiffy Brazilian black diamonds (also called carbonadoes).   
>> There's nothing
>> in the Florilegium except for Markham's references to carbonadoes   
>> (posted
>> by Adamantius), as well a few menus here and there. So, I would  
>> like some
>> help beyond that. If there's an actual French or Spanish source that
>> discusses carbonados (and its various spellings) , I would  
>> appreciate it.
>> I can read French.
>> Thanks!
>> Gwyneth Banfhidleir, OL (Midrealm)
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