[Sca-cooks] Question remove vs. course.

[Gretchen R Beck]

The online edition of the OED has a quote from 1625: 1625   S. Purchas Pilgrimes IV. 345   The dishes so placed..that they did reach a yard high as we sate, and yet each dish fit to bee dealt upon without remoove.

toodles, margaret
________________________________________
From: sca-cooks-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org [sca-cooks-bounces at lists.ansteorra.org] on behalf of Joel Lord [jpl at ilk.org]
Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2012 6:36 PM
To: Cooks within the SCA
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Question remove vs. course.

Since the article is a touch vague on one detail - when the term
"remove" really did start getting used in a culinary serving sense - I
figured I'd answer that.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, 1971 dead tree edition, the
word "remove", meaning "The act of taking away a dish or dishes at a
meal in order to put others in their place; hence, a dish thus removed,
or brought on in place of one removed," dates to 1755.  Interestingly,
the original use cited is one 'Johnson (ed. 4)', which is the 4th
edition of the first dictionary of the English language.  Odd that no
earlier cite exists that was not itself a dictionary.

"Course", on the other hand, meaning "Each of the successive parts or
divisions of a meal, whether consisting of a single dish, or of a set of
dishes places upon the table at once," first appeared in writing in 1325
in 'Cour de L.' [sic]: "Fro kechene come the fyrste
cours, With pypes, and trumpes, and tabours."

Obviously, if anyone has access to a newer edition of the OED that
changes these dates and cites, I'd be happy to know.

On 12/30/2012 5:25 PM, Johnna Holloway wrote:
> I have an odd question.
>
> If it is possible, could you please find out exactly
> where did this cook for this upcoming event get his or her information
> regarding the situation of using course versus the incorrect use of remove?
>
> What source(s) were they relying upon? Or were they going by past shire practice?
>
> Countess Alys has done everything through the years to publicize the appropriate
> use of the word course. Placing the title of the article in quotations, one gets 312 hits on Google.
> We've discussed it numerous times on this list and others. We keep thinking we have put the issue
> to bed and yet here it is again.
>
> I just have to wonder why at the end of 2012 are we still finding this situation….
>
> Johnnae
>
>
> On Dec 30, 2012, at 4:27 AM, Sharon Palmer wrote:
>
>>> Today a cook for an upcoming event said that the correct term was called
>>> remove not course, I said the term is course. I was then corrected by the
>>> rest at the meeting that what is served at feasts are removes and not
>>> courses. Memory fails me. I always thought it was course, is it remove?????
>>>
>>> De
>>>
>>
>> http://dialup.pcisys.net/~mem/course.html
>>
>> "Of Course It's 'Course'!";
>> or "Remove 'Remove'"
>> by Dame Alys Katharine of Ashthorne Glen
>>
>> Ranvaig
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--
Joel Lord
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