[Sca-cooks] Sca-cooks Digest, Vol 87, Issue 3
Thea Harvey-Barratt
thealou42 at gmail.com
Wed Jul 3 06:04:47 PDT 2013
Milk in May is highest in butter fat content because the grass is growing
very fast. So the cheese made from May milk would be richer and creamier
than any other time.
-Thea
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: What's the right cheese for an interrogation? (James Prescott)
2. Re: Runners/longieres instead of napkins? (lilinah at earthlink.net)
3. Watch Chicago Chefs Cook With Power Tools (Johnna Holloway)
4. Re: What's the right cheese for an interrogation?
(JIMCHEVAL at aol.com)
5. interrogation cheese and Trader Joe's (Stefan li Rous)
6. Re: interrogation cheese and Trader Joe's (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com)
7. Re: What's the right cheese for an interrogation? (James Prescott)
8. Re: what to get from Trader Joe's (Nancy Kiel)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2013 13:26:43 -0600
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] What's the right cheese for an interrogation?
Message-ID: <51D32973.3030901 at telusplanet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Interesting. I would want to investigate more closely two things.
First, while one of the texts seems to indicate a weight of 9 denarii, that
seems anomalous to me, and the other text seems to indicate a value for the
cheese of 9 denarii, which makes more sense to me.
Second, "May cheese" may not indicate simply a spring cheese. Compare, for
example, some of the definitions / recipes for "May butter". A "May cheese"
might be much more *exciting* than simply an ordinary spring cheese.
Having to keep down 9 denarii worth of "May cheese" from sheep's milk, along
with the bread, might be much more of a challenge than appears at first
reading.
There might be something exciting about the bread too, but I know little
about breads. So perhaps three things to investigate.
Thorvald / James
On 2013-07-02 08:43, JIMCHEVAL at aol.com wrote:
> While the Romans liked certain cheeses from Gaul and Brie cheese was
> already famous in the late medieval period, "cheese" in the early medieval
> period typically is just "cheese" - no region, type, qualification, etc.
>
> But here - from the Carolingian period - is one slightly more precise
> reference. This is one of a number of texts describing the curious "trial
by
> bread and cheese", in which the accused was given bread (here, unleavened
> barley bread) and cheese and considered guilty if he or she could not
keep it
> down. In this case, the cheese to be used is a "formaticus Maiensis de
> ovibus" of 9 denarii weight - that is, a May sheep's cheese.
>
>
_http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00000838.html?pageNo=631&sortI
>
ndex=020%3A060%3A0001%3A010%3A00%3A00&sort=score&order=desc&context=formatic
> um&hl=false&fulltext=formaticum_
>
(http://www.dmgh.de/de/fs1/object/goToPage/bsb00000838.html?pageNo=631&sortI
ndex=020:060:0001:010:00:00&sort=score&orde
> r=desc&context=formaticum&hl=false&fulltext=formaticum)
>
> May cheese is mentioned in later texts like the Enseignemens - it
> essentially means spring cheese and one such cheese (very much like a soft
Gouda)
> can sometimes be found at Trader Joe's. So, if there's someone you want
to
> interrogate....
>
>
> Jim Chevallier
>
> Comparing early and late medieval food in France
> http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 14:10:28 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
From: lilinah at earthlink.net
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Runners/longieres instead of napkins?
Message-ID:
<10614875.1372799429515.JavaMail.root at mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
Jim Chevallier wrote:
> Lovely image. I would think something that diaphanous would be silk, no?
>
> All this makes me wonder if this was yet another Eastern import that came
> to France after the Crusades.
Angharad replied
> Linen was woven much finer in period than you generally find it now
> (diaphanous is not implausible), and it would certainly make more sense to
> use it as a napkin like item, as it is both highly absorbent and more
> washable than silk. On the other hand, given that it's embroidered with
gold
> it would be hard to wash either way.
Indeed, Angharad is correct. Nowadays so-called "handkerchief" linen is
usually just very loosely (coarsely) woven out of threads not exceptionally
fine. But i actually own some 100 year old linen handkerchiefs, and the
threads are spun as finely as silk, they feel nearly weightless, and, yes,
they are rather sheer.
Based on my research i feel confident that the diaphanous longiera would
have been linen. I am not certain how all things were done in the Ottoman
palace, but i know sometimes items were made for special events and never
used again. So it is conceivable that very fine linen napery was made,
embroidered with silk and gold, and either put in storage (yes, without
cleaning), or cut up and distributed to guests, or discarded.
As far as something like the longiera coming from the East to Europe with
former Crusaders, i have no idea at this time.
Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM)
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2013 21:11:19 -0400
From: Johnna Holloway <johnnae at mac.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] Watch Chicago Chefs Cook With Power Tools
Message-ID: <3A3134DD-D206-40A5-BC09-C55861714F3D at mac.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
It's nearly the Fourth of July, so here we go with Chicago Chefs Cooking
With Power Tools
http://eater.com/archives/2013/07/02/watch-chicago-chefs-cook-with-power-too
ls.php
In case we need wacky ideas or a way to use our power tools in the kitchen.
Johnnae
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2013 22:39:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] What's the right cheese for an interrogation?
Message-ID: <affa6.7424cb33.3f04e8f3 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Denarii were also used as a measure of weight:
http://books.google.com/books?id=5Yw9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3429&dq=weight+9+denarii+
bread&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SY3TUeaxCrHtiQLWn4H4Cg&ved=0CIkBEOgBMA8#v=onepage&q&f=fa
lse
I've researched fromage de mai pretty closely; there was no "fromage de
printemps", so far as I know. From everything I've been able to gather, it
effectively meant a cheese produced in the spring; that is, a young cheese.
The bread isn't particularly exciting, but even leavened barley bread is
pretty heavy and unleavened must have been a real chore to get down.
Further research in the same text shows what appears to be a formula for an
exorcism, also using barley bread but specifically "dry" (siccum) bread,
but with goat's cheese, also dry ("aridum").
Most interesting to me of course is the mention of specific cheeses in this
period, which, again, is extremely rare.
Jim Chevallier
Comparing early and late medieval food in France
_http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html
In a message dated 7/2/2013 12:26:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
prescotj at telusplanet.net writes:
First, while one of the texts seems to indicate a weight of 9 denarii,
that seems anomalous to me, and the other text seems to indicate a value
for the cheese of 9 denarii, which makes more sense to me.
Second, "May cheese" may not indicate simply a spring cheese. Compare,
for example, some of the definitions / recipes for "May butter". A "May
cheese" might be much more *exciting* than simply an ordinary spring
cheese.
_ (http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html)
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:20:53 -0500
From: Stefan li Rous <StefanliRous at austin.rr.com>
To: SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks <SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org>
Subject: [Sca-cooks] interrogation cheese and Trader Joe's
Message-ID: <8AFC272D-7441-44DB-B0BF-FA4D3EEFC526 at austin.rr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Jim Chevallier mentioned:
<<< While the Romans liked certain cheeses from Gaul and Brie cheese was
already famous in the late medieval period, "cheese" in the early medieval
period typically is just "cheese" - no region, type, qualification, etc. >>>
Generally, yes. Even when a cheese is currently named for a region, we still
don't know how close the current cheese resembles what was made in period.
You can find some commentary on just how old some of these place name cheese
are in various cheese files in the FOOD-DAIRY section of the Florilegium.
<<< May cheese is mentioned in later texts like the Enseignemens - it
essentially means spring cheese and one such cheese (very much like a soft
Gouda)
can sometimes be found at Trader Joe's. So, if there's someone you want to
interrogate?. >>>
There is supposed to be a Trader Joe's opening up on the other side of town
from me this fall. Two closer ones later in 2014.
How would I identify this particular cheese? I assume "Enseignemens" is the
name of the text, not the cheese.
Can folks tell me what other items should I look for in my occasional treks
to Trader Joe's after they open?
Thanks,
Stefan
--------
THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
**** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 01:30:42 -0400 (EDT)
From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com
To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] interrogation cheese and Trader Joe's
Message-ID: <bfc1d.17e5719f.3f051102 at aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
As I recall, it's Meadowkase, a Dutch cheese. But it might (naturally
enough) be seasonal. Not sheep's unfortunately. (Fromage de mai and
fromage de
gain - supposedly from the fall - are found in various medieval texts.)
My own favorites at Trader Joe's are their kale, their Greek yogurt (with
honey or mangoes), their almonds, their Vina Chilenas wine (only a buck
more than the famous Two-buck Chuck and way better) and their langoustine
tails. They actually have some good pre-packaged meals too. Their olive
bread is
pretty yummy too, though I miss the days when they had a real whole wheat
loaf as opposed to the multigrain (but not of course whole grain) loaf
which replaced it.
The Enseignemens qui enseingnent a apareilier toutes manieres de viandes
is a 13th century cookbook; I've translated it as "How to Cook a Golden
Peacock".
Jim Chevallier
Comparing early and late medieval food in France
http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html
In a message dated 7/2/2013 10:21:01 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com writes:
There is supposed to be a Trader Joe's opening up on the other side of
town from me this fall. Two closer ones later in 2014.
How would I identify this particular cheese? I assume "Enseignemens" is
the name of the text, not the cheese.
Can folks tell me what other items should I look for in my occasional
treks to Trader Joe's after they open?
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 03 Jul 2013 00:28:14 -0600
From: James Prescott <prescotj at telusplanet.net>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] What's the right cheese for an interrogation?
Message-ID: <51D3C47E.1060101 at telusplanet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
A denarius is both a coin and a weight, but as a weight 9 of them is not
much. The roman denarius was 1/7 of an ounce avoirdupois, so 9 of them
make 9/7 of an ounce.
The corresponding Paris denier of c. 1400 was lighter, and 9 of these
would weigh less than 1/2 of an ounce.
Eating at most an ounce and a half of cheese and keeping it down does
not sound very challenging.
Unleavened bread per se is not very hard to get down, unless the type of
bread is unusually nasty, or is in large quantity.
As a formula for exorcism, the bread/cheese combination might work fine
even with small amounts.
As a form of trial by ordeal, the description makes it seem a very mild
test.
Thorvald
On 2013-07-02 20:39, JIMCHEVAL at aol.com wrote:
> Denarii were also used as a measure of weight:
>
http://books.google.com/books?id=5Yw9AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA3429&dq=weight+9+denarii+
>
bread&hl=en&sa=X&ei=SY3TUeaxCrHtiQLWn4H4Cg&ved=0CIkBEOgBMA8#v=onepage&q&f=fa
> lse
>
> I've researched fromage de mai pretty closely; there was no "fromage de
> printemps", so far as I know. From everything I've been able to gather,
it
> effectively meant a cheese produced in the spring; that is, a young
cheese.
>
> The bread isn't particularly exciting, but even leavened barley bread is
> pretty heavy and unleavened must have been a real chore to get down.
>
> Further research in the same text shows what appears to be a formula for
an
> exorcism, also using barley bread but specifically "dry" (siccum) bread,
> but with goat's cheese, also dry ("aridum").
>
> Most interesting to me of course is the mention of specific cheeses in
this
> period, which, again, is extremely rare.
>
>
> Jim Chevallier
>
> Comparing early and late medieval food in France
> _http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html
>
>
> In a message dated 7/2/2013 12:26:49 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
> prescotj at telusplanet.net writes:
>
> First, while one of the texts seems to indicate a weight of 9 denarii,
> that seems anomalous to me, and the other text seems to indicate a value
> for the cheese of 9 denarii, which makes more sense to me.
>
> Second, "May cheese" may not indicate simply a spring cheese. Compare,
> for example, some of the definitions / recipes for "May butter". A "May
> cheese" might be much more *exciting* than simply an ordinary spring
> cheese.
>
>
>
> _ (http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html)
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 08:32:09 -0400
From: Nancy Kiel <nancy_kiel at hotmail.com>
To: Cooks within the SCA <sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org>
Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] what to get from Trader Joe's
Message-ID: <BLU163-W15C984D7CD154D4C506B7AE0730 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252"
Their salsa verde. I have dumped the remaining crumbs from a bag of
tortilla chips into a bowl, put the salsa on top, and eaten it with a spoon.
Their gyoza and shelled edamame are also good; at Christmas time they have
Pfefferneuse; and their chocolate chip cookies (the first ingredient listed
is chocolate, not flour) are outstanding. Fortunately for me, the TJ's in
my area is not very close otherwise I would spend way too much money on
their awesome products and weigh about a million pounds.
Your servant,
Anne van Sint Maartensdijk
Nancy Kiel
nancy_kiel at hotmail.com
Never tease a weasel!
This is very good advice.
For the weasel will not like it
And teasing isn't nice.
> From: StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
> Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2013 00:20:53 -0500
> To: SCA-Cooks at Ansteorra.org
> Subject: [Sca-cooks] interrogation cheese and Trader Joe's
>
> Jim Chevallier mentioned:
> <<< While the Romans liked certain cheeses from Gaul and Brie cheese was
> already famous in the late medieval period, "cheese" in the early medieval
> period typically is just "cheese" - no region, type, qualification, etc.
>>>
>
> Generally, yes. Even when a cheese is currently named for a region, we
still don't know how close the current cheese resembles what was made in
period. You can find some commentary on just how old some of these place
name cheese are in various cheese files in the FOOD-DAIRY section of the
Florilegium.
>
> <<< May cheese is mentioned in later texts like the Enseignemens - it
> essentially means spring cheese and one such cheese (very much like a soft
Gouda)
> can sometimes be found at Trader Joe's. So, if there's someone you want
to
> interrogate?. >>>
>
> There is supposed to be a Trader Joe's opening up on the other side of
town from me this fall. Two closer ones later in 2014.
>
> How would I identify this particular cheese? I assume "Enseignemens" is
the name of the text, not the cheese.
>
> Can folks tell me what other items should I look for in my occasional
treks to Trader Joe's after they open?
>
> Thanks,
> Stefan
>
> --------
> THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra
> Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas
StefanliRous at austin.rr.com
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris
> **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org ****
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Sca-cooks mailing list
> Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org
------------------------------
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