From gothwalk at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 01:55:32 2014 From: gothwalk at gmail.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 09:55:32 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: Greetings to the assembled cooks from Aodh ? Siadhail! I'm cooking a feast for our Coronet Tourney in November. I'm planning to work from Nawal Nasrallah's translation of al-Warraq, and indeed, I've been trying out a few of the dishes in recent months, with some success. However, almost every dish listed is what we would think of as a "main dish". There are mentions in the text of side-dishes and smaller dishes served alongside, but I can't see what these might be. I'll be serving a somewhat out-of-period plain rice in any case, and I'll acquire flatbreads of various kinds from local Middle Eastern shops (I'd love to make these myself, but I won't have access to a tannur - nor do I have the skills to use one), but I'd like to have a few non-main-meal vegetable dishes to go alongside. What would be appropriate? Le meas, Aodh -- http://about.me/drewshiel "Luck affects everything. Let your hook always be cast; in the stream where you least expect it there will be a fish." -- Ovid. From t.d.decker at att.net Mon Sep 1 06:11:17 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 08:11:17 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1714D67F865B4EF58362FF75D643B754@Vishnu> You don't need a tannur to make flat breads. Most of the recipes can be baked on a hot rock in the embers, so use a griddle. There are supposed to be six bread recipes in al-Warraq (I haven't checked that so it's questionable until confirmed). If you are interested in the subject, you might take a look at https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199505/on.the.flatbread.trail.htm . I do recommend the Flatbreads and Flavors mentioned in the article as a good modern text on flatbreads. Now, why do you consider plain rice as "somewhat out of period." Bear -----Original Message----- Greetings to the assembled cooks from Aodh ? Siadhail! I'm cooking a feast for our Coronet Tourney in November. I'm planning to work from Nawal Nasrallah's translation of al-Warraq, and indeed, I've been trying out a few of the dishes in recent months, with some success. However, almost every dish listed is what we would think of as a "main dish". There are mentions in the text of side-dishes and smaller dishes served alongside, but I can't see what these might be. I'll be serving a somewhat out-of-period plain rice in any case, and I'll acquire flatbreads of various kinds from local Middle Eastern shops (I'd love to make these myself, but I won't have access to a tannur - nor do I have the skills to use one), but I'd like to have a few non-main-meal vegetable dishes to go alongside. What would be appropriate? Le meas, Aodh From gothwalk at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 06:39:51 2014 From: gothwalk at gmail.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 14:39:51 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: <1714D67F865B4EF58362FF75D643B754@Vishnu> References: <1714D67F865B4EF58362FF75D643B754@Vishnu> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Terry Decker wrote: If you are interested in the subject, you might take a look at > https://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/199505/on.the.flatbread.trail.htm > . I do recommend the Flatbreads and Flavors mentioned in the article as a > good modern text on flatbreads. > I'll take a look at those, thank you! Now, why do you consider plain rice as "somewhat out of period." > Well, the shortcut is that someone said so on Facebook a few weeks back. :) More usefully, I see mentions throughout the text of serving with bread, or of including rice IN a dish, but none of serving with rice, and no recipes that we would describe as being a rice dish on its own. These do occur in later period books, such as al-Baghdadi. There is, of course, the argument that there would be no need to include a recipe for something as basic as plain rice, but al-Warraq is very careful to cover everything else in detail - right down to the ma' wa milh recipes; meat simmered in salted water. Le meas, Aodh From t.d.decker at att.net Mon Sep 1 12:00:35 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 14:00:35 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: References: <1714D67F865B4EF58362FF75D643B754@Vishnu> Message-ID: Ah, the someone averred defense. Not necessarily a successful play on this list. A number of us like references, footnotes and bibliography. The comment on the nature of the recipes in al-Warraq is more telling and a far better point. Multiple sources would be better, but I think I can make a speculative case for your observation. Rice (and all cereals) have been cooked in water (and many other liquids) since the Neolithic and that manner of cooking is still with us. There are recipes from the same region later than al-Warraq that use water. So, the probability that plain rice is somewhat out of period is wrong. However, it may have been out of favor. The general opinion is rice entered Persia during the Achaemenid Empire (550-330 BCE) probably from India. Lambton (Landlord and Peasant in Persia) provides the fact that rice production in Persia was limited during the early Islamic period and had expanded some in Persia by the later medieval period. The conquest of Persia was essentially complete by 651 CE. Al-Warraq is 9th Century. We are discussing a period of roughly 200 years during which rice cultivation in Persia was likely limited and the grain was more expensive than it would be after cultivation was expanded in Egypt, Spain and Sicily (becoming notable in the 10th Century). Al-Baghdadi is 13th Century placing it well after the expansion of Islamic rice cultivation. Given and accepting these points as fact, the lack of a simple rice dish in al-Warraq might be attributed to the cost of rice in comparison to wheat and barley. The speculation might be further reinforced by comparative cost data, contemporary recipes for simple boiled cereals, other other observations from the period. Not an area where I am familiar with the available resources. Bear -----Original Message----- Now, why do you consider plain rice as "somewhat out of period." > Well, the shortcut is that someone said so on Facebook a few weeks back. :) More usefully, I see mentions throughout the text of serving with bread, or of including rice IN a dish, but none of serving with rice, and no recipes that we would describe as being a rice dish on its own. These do occur in later period books, such as al-Baghdadi. There is, of course, the argument that there would be no need to include a recipe for something as basic as plain rice, but al-Warraq is very careful to cover everything else in detail - right down to the ma' wa milh recipes; meat simmered in salted water. Le meas, Aodh From gothwalk at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 14:34:26 2014 From: gothwalk at gmail.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 22:34:26 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: References: <1714D67F865B4EF58362FF75D643B754@Vishnu> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Terry Decker wrote: Ah, the someone averred defense. Not necessarily a successful play on this > list. A number of us like references, footnotes and bibliography. > The someone was Urtatim, your honour, though I cannot find the actual reference. Facebook is less useful in terms of finding old discussions than might be hoped. > Given and accepting these points as fact, the lack of a simple rice dish > in al-Warraq might be attributed to the cost of rice in comparison to wheat > and barley. The speculation might be further reinforced by comparative > cost data, contemporary recipes for simple boiled cereals, other other > observations from the period. Not an area where I am familiar with the > available resources. > Given that al-Warraq isn't holding back on any of the other ingredients, I don't think cost was a particular factor for him. However, I'm perfectly willing to concede that the rice can be justified; I was going to serve it in any case. It's other side dishes with which I am more concerned at this stage. Le meas, Aodh -- http://about.me/drewshiel "Luck affects everything. Let your hook always be cast; in the stream where you least expect it there will be a fish." -- Ovid. From t.d.decker at att.net Mon Sep 1 16:10:32 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 18:10:32 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: References: <1714D67F865B4EF58362FF75D643B754@Vishnu> Message-ID: <58BB9499410A4E18B336138AE2B3BB6F@Vishnu> -----Original Message----- Ah, the someone averred defense. Not necessarily a successful play on this > list. A number of us like references, footnotes and bibliography. > The someone was Urtatim, your honour, though I cannot find the actual reference. Facebook is less useful in terms of finding old discussions than might be hoped. ------------------ And once you define the source, it becomes a bibliography entry. ------------------ > Given and accepting these points as fact, the lack of a simple rice dish > in al-Warraq might be attributed to the cost of rice in comparison to > wheat > and barley. The speculation might be further reinforced by comparative > cost data, contemporary recipes for simple boiled cereals, other other > observations from the period. Not an area where I am familiar with the > available resources. > Given that al-Warraq isn't holding back on any of the other ingredients, I don't think cost was a particular factor for him. However, I'm perfectly willing to concede that the rice can be justified; I was going to serve it in any case. It's other side dishes with which I am more concerned at this stage. Le meas, Aodh ------------------ IIRC, al-Warraq has recipes for eggplant, cabbage, carrots and beans (which might mean favas or black-eyed peas) which may function as sides. Why not post the tentative menu and how you plan to structure the feast. It might help us with ideas. Bear From StefanliRous at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 21:08:37 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 23:08:37 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] more on rice Message-ID: Wow. One of the best summaries of the use of rice, at least in the non-European areas, I?ve seen so far. Aodh, you might also look at this file in the FOOD-BREADS (and GRAINS) section of the Florilegium. This is much of what we?ve been saying for the last fifteen years, but I?m afraid it isn?t quite as concise as Bear?s summaries. rice-msg (130K) 9/ 1/14 Period rice. Recipes. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BREADS/rice-msg.html I just updated this one and the one on flat-breads, but I should have the latest versions uploaded in the next few days. Stefan <<< Rice (and all cereals) have been cooked in water (and many other liquids) since the Neolithic and that manner of cooking is still with us. There are recipes from the same region later than al-Warraq that use water. So, the probability that plain rice is somewhat out of period is wrong. However, it may have been out of favor. The general opinion is rice entered Persia during the Achaemenid Empire (550-330 BCE) probably from India. Lambton (Landlord and Peasant in Persia) provides the fact that rice production in Persia was limited during the early Islamic period and had expanded some in Persia by the later medieval period. The conquest of Persia was essentially complete by 651 CE. Al-Warraq is 9th Century. We are discussing a period of roughly 200 years during which rice cultivation in Persia was likely limited and the grain was more expensive than it would be after cultivation was expanded in Egypt, Spain and Sicily (becoming notable in the 10th Century). Al-Baghdadi is 13th Century placing it well after the expansion of Islamic rice cultivation. Given and accepting these points as fact, the lack of a simple rice dish in al-Warraq might be attributed to the cost of rice in comparison to wheat and barley. The speculation might be further reinforced by comparative cost data, contemporary recipes for simple boiled cereals, other other observations from the period. Not an area where I am familiar with the available resources. Bear >>> -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From nd_sca at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 10:58:04 2014 From: nd_sca at yahoo.com (nd sca) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 10:58:04 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo@web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different. Thanks! Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha Argent, a Chief Rayonny Azure. From cmupythia at cmu.edu Tue Sep 2 11:03:29 2014 From: cmupythia at cmu.edu (Gretchen R Beck) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:03:29 +0000 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo@web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo@web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56DDB644A1AF6E4CB5CF6CB8B50FCDB4025E6DE2@PGH-MSGMB-03.andrew.ad.cmu.edu> Lemon curd, candied lemon rind, dried salted lemons, lemon syrup? toodles, margaret ________________________________________ From: Sca-cooks [sca-cooks-bounces+cmupythia=cmu.edu at lists.ansteorra.org] on behalf of nd sca [nd_sca at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 1:58 PM To: Cooks within the SCA; SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different. Thanks! Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha Argent, a Chief Rayonny Azure. _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From galefridus at optimum.net Tue Sep 2 12:22:53 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:22:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rice in al-Warraq (was: Side Dishes for al-Warraq) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f895089.ae124.14837d1dc12.Webtop.48@optimum.net> I'll verify once I'm home from work, but I'm pretty sure that nearly all of the rice dishes in al-Warraq are pudding and the like made from rice flour. Whole grains of rice cooked as a starch sin't something that you'll find, IIRC. Again, I'll check later this evening to make sure. But it has nothing to do with cost. -- Galefridus > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2014 22:34:26 +0100 > From: Drew Shiel To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] > Side Dishes for al-Warraq > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 8:00 PM, Terry Decker wrote: > > Ah, the someone averred defense. Not necessarily a successful play on > this >> list. A number of us like references, footnotes and bibliography. >> > > The someone was Urtatim, your honour, though I cannot find the > actual > reference. Facebook is less useful in terms of finding old discussions > than > might be hoped. > > >> Given and accepting these points as fact, the lack of a simple rice >> dish >> in al-Warraq might be attributed to the cost of rice in comparison to >> wheat >> and barley. The speculation might be further reinforced by >> comparative >> cost data, contemporary recipes for simple boiled cereals, other >> other >> observations from the period. Not an area where I am familiar with >> the >> available resources. >> > > Given that al-Warraq isn't holding back on any of the other > ingredients, I > don't think cost was a particular factor for him. However, I'm > perfectly > willing to concede that the rice can be justified; I was going to > serve it > in any case. It's other side dishes with which I am more concerned at > this > stage. > > Le meas, > Aodh From galefridus at optimum.net Tue Sep 2 12:32:48 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 15:32:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3b5bc9.ae166.14837daf2ff.Webtop.48@optimum.net> I'm pretty sure that Meyer lemons are a modern cultivar, dating from the 18th or 19th century. Nevertheless, I see no reason why you couldn't use the things in any recipe calling for lemon juice, pulp, or zest. There are a number of limuwiyya/limuniyya recipes in al-Baghdadi, the Description of Familiar Foods, and the Anonymous Andalusian Cookbook, to say nothing of the various medieval and Renaissance European cookbooks. -- Galefridus > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 10:58:04 -0700 > From: nd sca To: Cooks within the SCA , SCA-Cooks > maillist SCA-Cooks Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons > Message-ID: > <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo at web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons > - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the > last time I got them, and would like to try something different. > > > Thanks! From mariettea at jfolse.com Tue Sep 2 12:42:14 2014 From: mariettea at jfolse.com (MarietteA) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 14:42:14 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: <7d3b5bc9.ae166.14837daf2ff.Webtop.48@optimum.net> References: <7d3b5bc9.ae166.14837daf2ff.Webtop.48@optimum.net> Message-ID: <54061D96.4050400@jfolse.com> Meyer lemons are a cross between a lemon and a mandarin orange. They originated in China as house plants. In the early 1900's, Frank Meyer, an agricultural explorer, discovered them there and introduced it to the U.S. They don't have the tang of a regular lemon, but make a very delicious lemon icebox pie. On 9/2/2014 2:32 PM, Galefridus Peregrinus wrote: > I'm pretty sure that Meyer lemons are a modern cultivar, dating from > the 18th or 19th century. Nevertheless, I see no reason why you > couldn't use the things in any recipe calling for lemon juice, pulp, > or zest. There are a number of limuwiyya/limuniyya recipes in > al-Baghdadi, the Description of Familiar Foods, and the Anonymous > Andalusian Cookbook, to say nothing of the various medieval and > Renaissance European cookbooks. > > > -- Galefridus > >> Message: 4 >> Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 10:58:04 -0700 >> From: nd sca To: Cooks within the SCA , SCA-Cooks >> maillist SCA-Cooks Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons >> Message-ID: >> <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo at web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer >> lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved >> lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something >> different. >> >> >> Thanks! > > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > -- Mariette Acocella Communications Department Chef John Folse & Co. Office (225)644-6000 ext. 23 Cell (225)444-2701 From johnnae at mac.com Tue Sep 2 13:49:16 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 16:49:16 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rice in al-Warraq (was: Side Dishes for al-Warraq) In-Reply-To: <1f895089.ae124.14837d1dc12.Webtop.48@optimum.net> References: <1f895089.ae124.14837d1dc12.Webtop.48@optimum.net> Message-ID: You might find the sections on rice and rice dishes in Nawal Nasrallah's Delights from the Garden of Eden to be interesting reading. She documents the history of rice, varieties, and how it was cooked. See especially pages 66-67. Johnnae From johnnae at mac.com Tue Sep 2 13:52:13 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 16:52:13 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo@web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo@web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <291098FF-7B43-470D-AB56-9641CC481EDA@mac.com> This article might help. http://www.latimes.com/style/la-fo-meyerlemons16jan16-story.html#page=1 Johnnae Sent from my iPad > On Sep 2, 2014, at 1:58 PM, nd sca wrote: > Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different. Thanks! Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha From nd_sca at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 10:58:04 2014 From: nd_sca at yahoo.com (nd sca) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 10:58:04 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1409680684.3123.YahooMailNeo@web161501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different. Thanks! Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha Argent, a Chief Rayonny Azure. From t.d.decker at att.net Tue Sep 2 16:40:02 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 18:40:02 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rice in al-Warraq (was: Side Dishes for al-Warraq) In-Reply-To: <1f895089.ae124.14837d1dc12.Webtop.48@optimum.net> References: <1f895089.ae124.14837d1dc12.Webtop.48@optimum.net> Message-ID: <82C8AA4F779E4458ACF733766B890287@Vishnu> What would be more telling is how other cereals were prepared. Were all cereals used strictly as flour or were they cooked as whole or cracked grain? And how were they prepared? Bear -----Original Message----- I'll verify once I'm home from work, but I'm pretty sure that nearly all of the rice dishes in al-Warraq are pudding and the like made from rice flour. Whole grains of rice cooked as a starch sin't something that you'll find, IIRC. Again, I'll check later this evening to make sure. But it has nothing to do with cost. -- Galefridus From johnnae at mac.com Tue Sep 2 17:43:46 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:43:46 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rice in al-Warraq (was: Side Dishes for al-Warraq) In-Reply-To: <82C8AA4F779E4458ACF733766B890287@Vishnu> References: <1f895089.ae124.14837d1dc12.Webtop.48@optimum.net> <82C8AA4F779E4458ACF733766B890287@Vishnu> Message-ID: Looked through roughly a quarter of the recipes indexed under rice. Harisa recipe on page 238 calls for cooking rice in water. Then add leeks.... Qiba on page 245 calls for a small amount of rice in a stuffed tripe. Rice porridge on page 256 calls for white rice rinsed three times. Stir until cooked rice is crushed. Rice porridges on page 261 call for whole rice again. Page 262 has a poem that talks about white rice being cooked to perfection. More rice recipes on 262 and 263. Ground rice is specified in the harisa on 257 and harisa kanuniyya on 258. It seems to me they used whole rice at least in these. Johnnae > > -----Original Message----- > I'll verify once I'm home from work, but I'm pretty sure that nearly all > of the rice dishes in al-Warraq are pudding and the like made from rice > flour. Whole grains of rice cooked as a starch sin't something that > you'll find, IIRC. Again, I'll check later this evening to make sure. > But it has nothing to with cost. From ursula at tutelaries.net Tue Sep 2 18:22:07 2014 From: ursula at tutelaries.net (Ursula Georges) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:22:07 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54066D3F.2010408@tutelaries.net> On 9/2/2014 2:05 PM, sca-cooks-request at lists.ansteorra.org wrote: > Greetings! I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer > lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved > lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something > different. Meyer lemons make great marmalade. --Ursula Georges. From galefridus at optimum.net Tue Sep 2 18:43:26 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 21:43:26 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rice in al-Warraq (was: Side Dishes for al-Warraq) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yeah, pretty much what I found as well. Lots of porridges and puddings, but also a few things that appear similar to our modern view of rice. -- Galefridus > Message: 8 > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2014 20:43:46 -0400 > From: Johnna Holloway > To: Cooks within the SCA > Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Rice in al-Warraq (was: Side Dishes for > al-Warraq) > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > Looked through roughly a quarter of the recipes indexed under rice. Harisa recipe on page 238 calls for cooking rice in water. Then add leeks.... > Qiba on page 245 calls for a small amount of rice in a stuffed tripe. > Rice porridge on page 256 calls for white rice rinsed three times. Stir until cooked rice is crushed. Rice porridges on page 261 call for whole rice again. > Page 262 has a poem that talks about white rice being cooked to perfection. More rice recipes on 262 and 263. > Ground rice is specified in the harisa on 257 and harisa kanuniyya on 258. > > It seems to me they used whole rice at least in these. > > Johnnae > > >> >> -----Original Message----- >> I'll verify once I'm home from work, but I'm pretty sure that nearly all >> of the rice dishes in al-Warraq are pudding and the like made from rice >> flour. Whole grains of rice cooked as a starch sin't something that >> you'll find, IIRC. Again, I'll check later this evening to make sure. >> But it has nothing to with cost. From meisterin02 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 19:28:00 2014 From: meisterin02 at yahoo.com (Meisterin Katarina Helene) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:28:00 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interesting Hangover Remedy Message-ID: <1409711280.3002.YahooMailNeo@web140503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I rarely post, but saw this interesting article about al Warraq's hangover remedy. I thought it would be most interesting to folks here. https://gma.yahoo.com/hangover-cure-1-000-years-ago-182557381--abc-news-Recipes.html ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch?nborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.comcast.net Middle Kingdom http://meisterin.katarina.home.comcast.net "A room without books is like a body without a soul." -- Cicero "The danger in life is not that we aim too high and miss. The problem is that we aim too low and hit the mark." -- Michaelangelo ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From StefanliRous at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 19:51:10 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 21:51:10 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Meyer lemons Message-ID: <<< I have a full bag (about 10 lbs?) of organic Meyer lemons - any ideas on what I can do with them? I made preserved lemons the last time I got them, and would like to try something different. Lady Natal'ia Georgievicha >>> I?m not sure which type of preserved lemons you made previously, but this might have some more recipes: presrvd-lemons-msg(45K) 10/29/11 Dried, pickled and salted preserved lemons. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-FRUITS/presrvd-lemons-msg.html How are Meyer lemons different from other lemons? Are they period for Europe? Anyway, since they are organic, perhaps candying them. candied-fruit-msg (48K) 7/ 3/11 Period candied fruit. Recipes. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/candied-fruit-msg.html candied-peels-art (16K) 3/21/06 "Candied Fruit Peel" by Dame Alys Katharine. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/candied-peels-art.html candied-peels-msg (75K) 5/25/13 Candied fruit peels. A late period treat. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SWEETS/candied-peels-msg.html Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From lordhunt at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 19:53:03 2014 From: lordhunt at gmail.com (Susan Lord Williams) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 22:53:03 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Rice OT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Talking about rice, I am not a dessert fan, much less rice pudding fan for dessert but I had to eat my words when I prepared the recipe in my blog http://www.medievalspanishchef.com/2014/07/farro-with-15th-century-for-spelt-rice.html Its a recipe should be a hit for any time, anywhere. From talana1 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 3 13:23:04 2014 From: talana1 at hotmail.com (Jennifer) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 15:23:04 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Interesting Hangover Remedy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Was Warraq not a Muslim? If he was, why would he need a hangover remedy? Just wondering, Talana > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:28:00 -0700 > From: Meisterin Katarina Helene > To: SCA-Cooks Maillist SCA-Cooks > Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interesting Hangover Remedy > Message-ID: > <1409711280.3002.YahooMailNeo at web140503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I rarely post, but saw this interesting article about al Warraq's hangover remedy. I thought it would be most interesting to folks here. > > https://gma.yahoo.com/hangover-cure-1-000-years-ago-182557381--abc-news-Recipes.html > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch?nborn, OL > Shire of Narrental (Peru, Indiana) http://narrental.home.comcast.net > Middle Kingdom > http://meisterin.katarina.home.comcast.net > > "A room without books is like a body without a soul." -- Cicero > > "The danger in life is not that we aim too high and miss. > The problem is that we aim too low and hit the mark." -- Michaelangelo > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From dama.antonia at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:54:32 2014 From: dama.antonia at gmail.com (Antonia Calvo) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 13:54:32 +1200 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Interesting Hangover Remedy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5407C658.3090502@gmail.com> On 4/09/2014 8:23 a.m., Jennifer wrote: > Was Warraq not a Muslim? If he was, why would he need a hangover remedy? > Are you aware of *any* religion where all of the adherents follow all of the rules? -- Antonia di Benedetto CalvoLoyse ------------------------------------- Saccharum pergratum. Villum lubricum. From jimandandi at cox.net Wed Sep 3 20:59:36 2014 From: jimandandi at cox.net (Jim and Andi) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 23:59:36 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Interesting Hangover Remedy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00bc01cfc7f4$a483ea50$ed8bbef0$@cox.net> There was a huge amount of alcohol consumption in al-Islam, depending on where and when you were around. The Persians never paid attention to that particular hadith and were well-known for their wine production (and opium, but that's a different story). There was a wonderful CA recently about alcoholic beverages in medieval al-Islam- CA0157 Intoxicating Beverages in the Middle East Madhavi -----Original Message----- From: Sca-cooks [mailto:sca-cooks-bounces+jimandandi=cox.net at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Jennifer Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 4:23 PM To: Cooks list Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Interesting Hangover Remedy Was Warraq not a Muslim? If he was, why would he need a hangover remedy? Just wondering, Talana > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 19:28:00 -0700 > From: Meisterin Katarina Helene > To: SCA-Cooks Maillist SCA-Cooks > Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interesting Hangover Remedy > Message-ID: > <1409711280.3002.YahooMailNeo at web140503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > I rarely post, but saw this interesting article about al Warraq's hangover remedy. I thought it would be most interesting to folks here. > > https://gma.yahoo.com/hangover-cure-1-000-years-ago-182557381--abc-new > s-Recipes.html > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Meisterin Katarina Helene von Sch?nborn, OL Shire of Narrental (Peru, > Indiana) http://narrental.home.comcast.net Middle Kingdom > http://meisterin.katarina.home.comcast.net > > "A room without books is like a body without a soul." -- Cicero > > "The danger in life is not that we aim too high and miss. > The problem is that we aim too low and hit the mark." -- Michaelangelo > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 4 06:36:50 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 06:36:50 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: <22105026.1409837811318.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I just got home from teaching at the Known World Bards and Cooks in Northshield. I drove to Wisconsin because I had to bring all the necessary pots and pans and kitchen tools and ingredients. I went through all of al-Warraq looking for uses of rice some time ago - over a year, IIRC. It appears that cooked rice by itself was not a common dish. I'm on my cell phone, so I can't easily quote from posts - someone mentioned a poem that referred to rice "cooked to perfection". But there's no clear description of what that means in the late 10th century when al-Warraq collected all those recipes and food poems from the 9th & 10th centuries, or whenever the poem was written. The first recipe we know of for rice cooked as individual grains is in al-Baghdadi, at least about 250 years later. Since there are a rather limited number of recipes using rice, I wonder if perhaps they were getting broken rice from Persia. When I can, I'll go thru al-Warraq again and list all the mentions. I am quite skeptical that rice was used as a side with other dishes. After all, a dish, let's call it a stew, was placed in the table and all diners dug in with a few fingers on their right hands, all eating out if the sane shared dish. No one had a plate on which rice was put, then topped with said stew. Everyone did have some bread. Diners generally tore off some of the bread, which they might use to soak up some of the liquid in the dish. By the way, please avoid modern pita. It is unlike period breads as far as I can tell from all my reading. I second or third the recommendation for "Flatbreads and Flavors". Anyway, more to come once I get inside my apartment - and get a nap - and can defend myself with specific references to page numbers and recipes. Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM) From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 4 14:17:46 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:17:46 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: <21057638.1409865467529.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Trying to catch up... Bear questioned the number of bread recipes in al-Warraq, since he hasn't seen them. They are on p. 118-122 of Annals of the Caliphs' Kitchens: Ibn Sayy?r al-Warr?q's Tenth Century Cookbook -- Making khubz (flat bread) and ruq?q (very thin bread) -- A recipe for Khubz al-ma' al-Nabati (Nabatean water bread) -- A recipe for bread called khubz al-qanani (bottle bread) -- Making khuybz ma'ruk (pressed and rubbed bread) -- Making barazidhaj (fine white bread, thin and flat in shape, but not as thin as the paper-thin ruq?q bread. It is usually leavened with bakers' borax) -- Making ruq?q (thin breads): Two kinds of ruq?q are made: labiq, and jarmazaj. The first variety os small and neatly shaped into perfect rounds flattened into extreme thinness. Jarmazaj is larger. -- Making bread of Abu Hamza That is 9 recipes. A few other breads, including bread made of rice (which he says is bloating), are mentioned in his introduction to the chapter. Urtatim From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 4 14:22:53 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 14:22:53 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: <27501092.1409865773914.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > bread made of rice (which he says is bloating) I got that backwards, al-Warraq says rice bread is less bloating than wheat bread. Sorry Urtatim From johnnae at mac.com Thu Sep 4 14:24:03 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 17:24:03 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: <22105026.1409837811318.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <22105026.1409837811318.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1A1DD848-0FF9-43C3-892A-5D86794988B8@mac.com> I suppose part of the questions regarding serving plain rice relate to the practicality of serving a feast based upon al-Warraq and expecting that it be eaten in the authentic manner of everyone at a table dipping their hands into a common bowl and sharing the food in such a manner. (Women and children should be authenticly excluded of course, right?) Given how feasts are paid for and served in the Society and with the multitude of diners demanding vegetarian or vegan options, serving plain rice might be a desired option anyway, whether or not it is the rice cooked to perfection. Johnnae Sent from my iPad > On Sep 4, 2014, at 9:36 AM, lilinah at earthlink.net wrote: > Snipped > I am quite skeptical that rice was used as a side with other dishes. After all, a dish, let's call it a stew, was placed in the table and all diners dug in with a few fingers on their right hands, all eating out if the sane shared dish. No one had a plate on which rice was put, then topped with said stew. > Snipped > > Urtatim From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 4 15:45:14 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:45:14 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: <24102722.1409870714433.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Johnna wrote: > I suppose part of the questions regarding serving plain rice relate to the practicality of serving a feast > based upon al-Warraq and expecting that it be eaten in the authentic manner of everyone at a table dipping > their hands into a common bowl and sharing the food in such a manner. (Women and children should be > authenticly excluded of course, right?) Right, unless you have singing and/or dancing girls... :-) > Given how feasts are paid for and served in the Society and with the multitude of diners demanding > vegetarian or vegan options, serving plain rice might be a desired option anyway, whether or not it is the > rice cooked to perfection. It seems to me, given what we know, that NO rice whatsoever would make far more sense and be far more accurate, if one desires some modicum of historical accuracy. Eat the food on individual plates as we are used to, and provide varieties of flat breads (lavash, naan, etc.). Urtatim From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 4 15:55:05 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 15:55:05 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: <24338789.1409871305426.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rustique.atl.sa.earthlink.net> In their article "History of Rice in Western and Central Asia" [included in "Rice : origin, antiquity and history", edited by S.D. Sharma, 2010], authors Mark Nesbitt, St John Simpson, and Ingvar Svanberg note explicitly the small number of recipes that include rice among al-Warraq's 615 or so recipes compiled in the 940s or 950s. They also state that most are porridge-y or desserts. In some meat dishes, a relatively small amount of rice is added, apparently chiefly as a thickener. They counted about 23 savory dishes that included rice as an ingredient - 3.7% of al-Warraq's total number of recipes - 14 are porridge-y; one is qibba - stuffed tripe (which has the Persian name "gipa"); 5 meat dishes have rice added, but not in a great quantity; one chicken dish has rice listed as optional; one is simmered ribs and rice and milk are cooked in the resulting broth - the description sounds like it results in mushy rice; and an oven baked meat dish with equal quantities of beans and rice. None results in anything like a modern pilaf. A number of these dishes have Persian names, which suggests a foreign source of the rice. On page 316, they note that there are no references to serving dishes on a bed of rice, whereas many recipes refer to serving dishes with bread. They also noted about 7 rice desserts, all pudding-like except one (which they call a pudding) which is a judhaba baked with duck drippings, and most made with rice flour. When i get home i will verify this myself, since it seems i didn't keep a record of my initial count. They also say, on pp. 316-317: "the references to adding rice may reflect courtly associations rather than common cooking traditions... This is particularly clear in the case of the golden condensed puddings (faludhaj, from Middle Persian paludag, literally ?purified?), where the ingredients include expensive long-distance imports (the main source of camphor was Japan and even the rice is specified as preferably coming from Syro-Palestine or Yemen, in both cases far removed from the kitchens of Baghdad), the process was labor intensive and there is gratuitous reference to straining through costly silk or linen cloth. The implication of these references is that rice was still regarded as a speciality ingredient rather than a staple. Several of these recipes are referred to in connection with Iranians or have Iranian names, and the fact that many other Abbasid court dishes also have Iranian names suggest a strong legacy from earlier Sassanian cuisine." The authors note that there are four important cookbooks from the 13th century which include recipes for rice (they appear to be unaware of the anonymous Andalusian cookbook, perhaps because it has not be published in book form). They books they mention are : -- The one compiled in Baghdad in the first half of the century by Muhammad ibn al-Karim al-Katib al-Baghdadi -- The second is known as Kitab al-Wusla ila l-habib fi wasf al-tayyibat wa-l-tib (Book of the Relation with the Beloved in the Description of the Best Dishes and Spices), usually attributed to Ibn al-?Adim of Aleppo who emigrated to Gaza and thence to Egypt and includes a number of North African dishes as well as recipes identified with particular regions -- The third is known as Kanz al-Fawa'id fi tanwi' al- mawa'id (The Treasury of Useful Advice for the Composition of a Varied Table), compiled in Egypt during Mamluk rule -- the fourth was almost certainly compiled by ibn Raz n at Murcia in Andalucia and is titled Kitab Fadalat al-khiwan fi tayyibat al-ta'am wa-l-alwan (Book of the Excellent Table Composed of the Best Foods and the Best Dishes) The authors say, on p. 318, the "Kitab al-Wusla is the most important for our purposes as it expressly refers to certain dishes which resemble what we recognize as pilaf." I note that this is 300 years after al-Warraq. Many of the other recipes are for meat dishes that include rice among their other ingredients much like al-Warraq's recipes, i.e., as a thickener or one of several ingredients, not a primary ingredient. The authors go on to discuss rice in Central Asia, noting on p. 320, "Although the name [pilov] indicates a long tradition in Central Asia it was until rather recently more commonly made of barley rather than rice among the oasis dwellers. It was only the rich and wealthy that could afford to use rice in their pilov. However, during the approximately last century or more rice has become the most common ingredient." On the other hand, the two, as yet untranslated, 16th c. Safavid Persian cookbooks have masses of recipes in which rice is a major ingredient, and a meat dish is either prepared and served on very carefully cooked rice, or the partially and separately cooked meat and rice are layered in a pot and cooked without disturbing before being carefully turned out on a dish and served. By that time - and in that place - two Persian provinces, Mazandaran and Gilan, were and are major rice growing regions - rice has achieved the status and condition with which we associate it. But in earlier times, in Arabic speaking regions, rice is not the primary starch on which the savory dishes are served, but rather an ingredient used in modest quantities in savory dishes. The primary starch was bread, and a meal quite easily could include no rice whatsoever. Urtatim Not yet at home, but catching up on e-mail and work From galefridus at optimum.net Thu Sep 4 18:22:15 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2014 21:22:15 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Interesting Hangover Remed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9996520B-F30E-4B1C-8FA6-A5BD536CA2E2@optimum.net> In addition to the comments already made, keep in mind that al-Warraq includes nine recipes for various wines and meads. -- Galefridus > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 15:23:04 -0500 > From: Jennifer > To: Cooks list > Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Interesting Hangover Remedy > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Was Warraq not a Muslim? If he was, why would he need a hangover remedy? > > Just wondering, > > > Talana From StefanliRous at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 21:50:56 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 23:50:56 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Subject: Interesting Hangover Remedy Message-ID: <73FBBCC8-C3AE-4186-8F07-3F5AD5F54B30@gmail.com> <<< Was Warraq not a Muslim? If he was, why would he need a hangover remedy? Just wondering, Talana >>> Perhaps some of our previous discussions on this might be of interest? In the Florilegium RELIGION section: Islam-alcohol-msg (12K) 3/ 3/13 Arabic and Islamic drinking of alcohol. http://www.florilegium.org/files/RELIGION/Islam-alcohol-msg.html Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From StefanliRous at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 22:02:47 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 00:02:47 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Why bother to import the cheap stuff? Message-ID: Urtatim said: <<< Since there are a rather limited number of recipes using rice, I wonder if perhaps they were getting broken rice from Persia. When I can, I'll go thru al-Warraq again and list all the mentions. >>> Really? I assume by ?broken rice? you mean broken kernels? I would also assume this means a lower quality of rice. But why would you spend the time and money to import less than the best? That doesn?t seem to fit with other examples I?m aware of. a) I?ve heard that almost all olive oil imported to the US from Italy is the prime, virgin quality. The second and third grade stuff stays in its home countries. b) Molasses wasn?t imported to Europe from the sugar cane plantations in the New World until after the price of sugar had fallen tremendously from where it once was. It was certainly just as available earlier. Urtatium, see what words he uses to describe the rice. Or whether he indicates that it needs to be ground or broken. Maybe that step is assumed, but maybe it did come that way. Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Thu Sep 4 22:28:11 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 01:28:11 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Why bother to import the cheap stuff? Message-ID: <8d852.39fcad55.413aa3eb@aol.com> The Romans certainly imported lesser quality versions of some foods. Martial writes of "unsavory Toulouse cheese" and disparages the tuna fish of Antibes, which were used to make a lesser quality of garum (usually made with mackerel.) Just as some very inferior French wines find their way to the States today, when there's a big demand for a luxury product, there are often those willing to accept a lesser version for a lesser price. A good sauvignon blanc is crisp and lemony; don't expect that experience from Trader Joe's house brands (except the Vina Chilenas, actually one of the cheapest). Jim Chevallier _www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/) Comparing prices in medieval France _http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/08/comparing-prices-in-medieval-france.ht ml_ (http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/08/french-cities-of-dark-ages.html) In a message dated 9/4/2014 10:02:53 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, StefanliRous at gmail.com writes: Really? I assume by ?broken rice? you mean broken kernels? I would also assume this means a lower quality of rice. But why would you spend the time and money to import less than the best? That doesn?t seem to fit with other examples I?m aware of. From t.d.decker at att.net Thu Sep 4 23:59:14 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2014 01:59:14 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Why bother to import the cheap stuff? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7F2455C0C8064914A4646E849CDB56D3@Vishnu> To the first question, the answer is limited production. Rice is a marginal crop in a desert as there are limited areas with enough water to grow it. The rice was being imported from almost the only source (there was some imported from India at even greater expense). It is roughly 200 years until there is enough rice cultivation elsewhere around the Mediterranean to meet the demand. BTW, there is a similar issue with sugar cane in this period. With molasses, I think you're putting the cart before the horse. There was increasing sugar production in the Arab world from about the 9th Century on and in the 15th and 16th Century there was European competition from the Azores and the Canaries. The price dropped significantly during this period and sugar refining came to the Low Countries. Molasses was manufactured in Europe and was part of Columbus's provision on the first voyage. Sugar production in the West Indies began in the 16th Century. It expand with a growing demand for sugar and rum. Molasses was often shipped as the raw material of rum production. In the case of the British triangular trade, molasses would more often be shipped to North America than to Europe. Slavery and the plantation system made large scale commercial production possible, which permitted the West Indies to set the prices and control the European market. Old World sugar production declined and the West Indies filled the gap. The price drop you are thinking of came between 1645 and 1680 when the production was large enough to cause a 70 per cent decline in the price. The expansion of production and the reduced prices are an expected relationship, but I see the export of molasses as an artifact of increased production and a growing demand for rum rather than a drop in price. Bear -----Original Message----- Urtatim said: <<< Since there are a rather limited number of recipes using rice, I wonder if perhaps they were getting broken rice from Persia. When I can, I'll go thru al-Warraq again and list all the mentions. >>> Really? I assume by ?broken rice? you mean broken kernels? I would also assume this means a lower quality of rice. But why would you spend the time and money to import less than the best? b) Molasses wasn?t imported to Europe from the sugar cane plantations in the New World until after the price of sugar had fallen tremendously from where it once was. It was certainly just as available earlier. Stefan From ddfr at daviddfriedman.com Fri Sep 5 18:00:46 2014 From: ddfr at daviddfriedman.com (David Friedman) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2014 18:00:46 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <540A5CBE.5080700@daviddfriedman.com> With regard to the flatbreads ... . I don't have a tannur either. They work fine on a baking stone in the oven, and at least the ruqaq works in a hot frying pan without oil. I made it a couple of times this past Pennsic over the fire and it was greatly appreciated. The soused eggplant would work as a side dish, and can be made long in advance?I brought some to Pennsic. Possibly with crumbly crackers or bread of Abu Hamsa to eat it on. My daughter was head cook a while ago for a feast largely from al-Warraq. One thing she did was khall wa zayt, which is a cold vegetable dish to be served with chicken. We also did "A cold dish of dressed carrots" (p. 228) and it was quite good. You could try "A recipe for white beans" (p. 295.) You could try one of the baridas of beans (pp, 233-4). I think they are intended to be done with fresh favas, which I've been sometimes able to get but you may not be. I'm not sure how well they would work with dried favas, but you could experiment. There are two more baridas of fava beans on pp. 229-30 that turned out pretty well when we tried them. But skinning the beans was a bit of a nuisance. Hope that helps. Note that Judhaba is yummy. On 9/1/14, 1:55 AM, Drew Shiel wrote: > Greetings to the assembled cooks from Aodh ? Siadhail! > > I'm cooking a feast for our Coronet Tourney in November. I'm planning to > work from Nawal Nasrallah's translation of al-Warraq, and indeed, I've been > trying out a few of the dishes in recent months, with some success. > > However, almost every dish listed is what we would think of as a "main > dish". There are mentions in the text of side-dishes and smaller dishes > served alongside, but I can't see what these might be. > > I'll be serving a somewhat out-of-period plain rice in any case, and I'll > acquire flatbreads of various kinds from local Middle Eastern shops (I'd > love to make these myself, but I won't have access to a tannur - nor do I > have the skills to use one), but I'd like to have a few non-main-meal > vegetable dishes to go alongside. What would be appropriate? > > Le meas, > Aodh > -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/ From ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Sat Sep 6 06:33:23 2014 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com (Sharon Palmer) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 09:33:23 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Why bother to import the cheap stuff? In-Reply-To: <8d852.39fcad55.413aa3eb@aol.com> References: <8d852.39fcad55.413aa3eb@aol.com> Message-ID: >The Romans certainly imported lesser quality versions of some foods. >Martial writes of "unsavory Toulouse cheese" That could mean an aged cheese or even a blue cheese, not necessarily lesser quality. Ranvaig From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Sat Sep 6 08:20:34 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 11:20:34 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Why bother to import the cheap stuff? Message-ID: <52def.988622f.413c8042@aol.com> In context, it's part of a litany of unpleasant offerings: http://books.google.com/books?id=k3VfAAAAMAAJ&dq=Martial%20toulouse%20cheese &pg=PA559#v=onepage&q&f=false Like many satirists, too, Martial leaned more towards the negative than the positive. Jim Chevallier _www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/) Comparing prices in medieval France _http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/08/comparing-prices-in-medieval-france.ht ml_ (http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/08/french-cities-of-dark-ages.html) In a message dated 9/6/2014 6:33:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ranvaig at columbus.rr.com writes: >The Romans certainly imported lesser quality versions of some foods. >Martial writes of "unsavory Toulouse cheese" That could mean an aged cheese or even a blue cheese, not necessarily lesser quality. From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Sat Sep 6 09:36:52 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 12:36:52 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Why bother to import the cheap stuff? Message-ID: <549ce.1375fe13.413c9224@aol.com> In fact, as it turns out, the "unsavory" is one of those unfortunate interpolations by a translator. The original simply refers to a "slice [or square] of cheese from Toulouse": http://books.google.com/books?id=LMB7N-TJio4C&pg=PA420&dq=Martial++cheese+qu adra&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zjULVKWWCoHpoAT4qYGYAg&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=fals e It's the context, a litany of unpleasant and, yes, unsavory things that establishes the poor nature of this Gallic cheese. Tangentially, there seems to be a whole sub-genre of literature of guests whining about how they were received. The bishop-poet Fortunatus complains in one poem about how long he's been made to wait for his food. I'd bet there's something in Juvenal along the same lines. Jim Chevallier _www.chezjim.com_ (http://www.chezjim.com/) Comparing prices in medieval France _http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/08/comparing-prices-in-medieval-france.ht ml_ (http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/08/french-cities-of-dark-ages.html) In a message dated 9/6/2014 6:33:29 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, ranvaig at columbus.rr.com writes: >The Romans certainly imported lesser quality versions of some foods. >Martial writes of "unsavory Toulouse cheese" That could mean an aged cheese or even a blue cheese, not necessarily lesser quality. From lordhunt at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 12:41:52 2014 From: lordhunt at gmail.com (Susan Lord Williams) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 15:41:52 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How do you handle carrots in medieval feasts as they were not orange until the Dutch developed them with the rise of the House of Orange? Technically, medieval carrots should be white. Do I recall red carrots at some point? Sometimes I have found white carrots in Spanish markets but not in America. From lilinah at earthlink.net Sat Sep 6 13:03:49 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 13:03:49 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq Message-ID: <23456099.1410033829986.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I had the opportunity to check all the dishes in al-Warraq i could find that used rice. The number preceding the name of the dish is the page number in Nasrallah's hard cover edition. There is no plain rice recipe. There is nothing resembling a pilaf. There are 30 recipes using rice, which is a tad less than 5% of the total number of recipes. (i skipped the recipe for fuqqa, a sort of near-beer, in which rice replaces barley) In 20 recipes, the rice is ground, pounded, crushed, disintegrated into mush, cooked as a porridge (so it's soft and mushy), cooked as harisa (so it's soft and mushy or beaten until it is a puree), or used as flour. In the remainder the rice is cooked with meat and an equal amount of lentils, and/or beans, and/or chickpeas or added to meat with the vegetables. In one it is added to the stuffing for a sort of medieval Arabic haggis (qippa). In another a handful of rice is optional in a dish of 2 fat chickens, chickpeas, and noodles. In yet another it is cooked in milk & broth as for judhab (probably soft and mushy, since many judhaba are made with crumbled torn bread soaked in water or other liquid). Two are broths for invalids in which it is noted to cook until thin enough to sip. I would suggest that no rice be served at the feast unless it is in one of the aforementioned dishes. Clearly rice topped with another dish was not part of the dining of the elite in the 9th and 10th centuries. Don't give in to a modern stereotype. Bread is the basic carbohydrate eaten with meals. Check out Middle Eastern and South Asian markets for flat bread that is NOT pita. If you have Trader Joe's, it sells naan flat bread (i recommend the plain). Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM) From susanrlin at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 13:13:12 2014 From: susanrlin at gmail.com (Susan Lin) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 14:13:12 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I am using carrots I use carrots. If I can find the "heirloom" variety in colors I may use them (price always being a factor) and if I am writing a menu I may mention the story of orange carrots but as I am not in a position to find or grow carrots in period colors I accept them as they are now and hope that those who know the story accept them and do not judge me too critically. Shoshanah On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 1:41 PM, Susan Lord Williams wrote: > How do you handle carrots in medieval feasts as they were not orange until > the Dutch developed them with the rise of the House of Orange? > > Technically, medieval carrots should be white. Do I recall red carrots at > some point? Sometimes I have found white carrots in Spanish markets but not > in America. > > > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > From t.d.decker at att.net Sat Sep 6 14:00:03 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2014 16:00:03 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <851E48C233CD4A66B2831F4B2677B439@Vishnu> Usually, I just ignore the issue. According to a number of sources (which may be proved wrong by DNA analysis), the orange carrot is derived from the yellow. Ibn-al-Awwam noted carrots being cultivated at Seville in the 12th Century. There are no particular details about the plant, but they were likely red carrots which started appearing in other European countries in the 13th and 14th Century. Prior to the 13th Century in Europe, white carrots would have been the norm and they persisted in French cooking until well after red and yellow carrots became the established order. I don't know of a commercial source for white carrots, but the dark purple "reds" are available at some specialty grocers. The forerunners of the modern orange carrots started showing up in the Netherlands and England in the 16th Century. I have seen no contemporary reference that ties the development of the orange carrot to he House of Orange. The hybridization was to produce a sweeter, better textured carrot and the color was incidental nationalism. Bear -----Original Message----- From: Susan Lord Williams How do you handle carrots in medieval feasts as they were not orange until the Dutch developed them with the rise of the House of Orange? Technically, medieval carrots should be white. Do I recall red carrots at some point? Sometimes I have found white carrots in Spanish markets but not in America. From prescotj at telusplanet.net Sat Sep 6 17:39:28 2014 From: prescotj at telusplanet.net (James Prescott) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2014 18:39:28 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots In-Reply-To: <851E48C233CD4A66B2831F4B2677B439@Vishnu> References: <851E48C233CD4A66B2831F4B2677B439@Vishnu> Message-ID: <540BA940.1050707@telusplanet.net> Last month my ordinary supermarket was selling packages of four different colours of carrot, with the implication that they were heritage. If I remember correctly, there were white, red, and yellow, as well as a couple of orange. I don't know if they are still being sold. Thorvald On 2014-09-06, 15:00, Terry Decker wrote: > Usually, I just ignore the issue. According to a number of sources > (which may be proved wrong by DNA analysis), the orange carrot is > derived from the yellow. Ibn-al-Awwam noted carrots being cultivated at > Seville in the 12th Century. There are no particular details about the > plant, but they were likely red carrots which started appearing in other > European countries in the 13th and 14th Century. Prior to the 13th > Century in Europe, white carrots would have been the norm and they > persisted in French cooking until well after red and yellow carrots > became the established order. I don't know of a commercial source for > white carrots, but the dark purple "reds" are available at some > specialty grocers. The forerunners of the modern orange carrots started > showing up in the Netherlands and England in the 16th Century. > > I have seen no contemporary reference that ties the development of the > orange carrot to he House of Orange. The hybridization was to produce a > sweeter, better textured carrot and the color was incidental nationalism. > > Bear > > -----Original Message----- From: Susan Lord Williams > > How do you handle carrots in medieval feasts as they were not orange > until the Dutch developed them with the rise of the House of Orange? > > Technically, medieval carrots should be white. Do I recall red carrots > at some point? Sometimes I have found white carrots in Spanish markets > but not in America. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > From lordhunt at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 12:53:12 2014 From: lordhunt at gmail.com (Susan Lord Williams) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 16:53:12 -0300 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots and Rice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44427D1F-EC4C-47FC-80A7-A0FBDD649A5A@gmail.com> James Prescott wrote: > > > Last month my ordinary supermarket was selling packages of four > different colours of carrot, with the implication that they were > heritage. If I remember correctly, there were white, red, and yellow, > as well as a couple of orange. I don't know if they are still being sold. > > Thorvald > > > On 2014-09-06, 15:00, Terry Decker wrote: >> Usually, I just ignore the issue. According to a number of sources >> (which may be proved wrong by DNA analysis), the orange carrot is >> derived from the yellow. Ibn-al-Awwam noted carrots being cultivated at >> Seville in the 12th Century. There are no particular details about the >> plant, but they were likely red carrots which started appearing in other >> European countries in the 13th and 14th Century. Prior to the 13th >> Century in Europe, white carrots would have been the norm and they >> persisted in French cooking until well after red and yellow carrots >> became the established order. I don't know of a commercial source for >> white carrots, but the dark purple "reds" are available at some >> specialty grocers. The forerunners of the modern orange carrots started >> showing up in the Netherlands and England in the 16th Century. >> >> I have seen no contemporary reference that ties the development of the >> orange carrot to he House of Orange. The hybridization was to produce a >> sweeter, better textured carrot and the color was incidental nationalism. >> >> Bear >> >> -----Original Message----- From: Susan Lord Williams >> >> How do you handle carrots in medieval feasts as they were not orange >> until the Dutch developed them with the rise of the House of Orange? >> >> Technically, medieval carrots should be white. Do I recall red carrots >> at some point? Sometimes I have found white carrots in Spanish markets >> but not in America. >> When you are preparing feasts, do you purposely grown specific vegetables in your gardens? Like if you plant white carrots, you would probably charge the cost for the seeds and roughly estimate the water and any other items used to grow them? I ask because vegetables and fruits don?t appear in accounts of medieval manors. I suppose they were collecting their seeds and planting them instead of going to a garden center to buy a package. On the other topic ?rice,? someone mentioned rice recipes being mushy. Coming from a Valencian family, mushy rice is a sin. It must be dry, not at all mushy and al diente. I had to eat my words when I published my adaption of the Al-Andalus recipe Rice with honey No. 408. Receta del arroz con miel, p 225 - see Perry?s translation. You find my publication in my blog http://www.medievalspanishchef.com/2014/04/ercacias-with-13th-century-recipe-for.html titled ?Ericacias,? published April 4, 2014. If preparing a feast to point out the use of rice in Spain and/or the orient during medieval times or just being lovey dubby with the family, this dessert is a winner. I gave it 10 points out of 10 which I do not do often with my adaptations of medieval recipes! From t.d.decker at att.net Sun Sep 7 14:50:31 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 16:50:31 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots In-Reply-To: <540BA940.1050707@telusplanet.net> References: <851E48C233CD4A66B2831F4B2677B439@Vishnu> <540BA940.1050707@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: John Stolarczyk of the World Carrot Museum ( http://www.carrotmuseum.co.uk/ ) has co-authored an article on carrots for Chronica Horticulturae https://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/pdfs/ch5102-carrot.pdf . Bear From StefanliRous at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 15:21:38 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 17:21:38 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Stefan's Florilegium files for September Message-ID: Greetings to the Gentlefolk of the SCA, Here is a copy of my Florilegium article for September, detailing what is new in the Florilegium this month. Please remember for those of you wanting an easier way to see everything is in the Florilegium, all 2500+ files, without paging through subsection after subsection, you can now do so by looking at or downloading the filelist-list. If this is of use/interest to you, email me and I will try to keep it more consistently updated in the future. I am always looking for good articles for the Florilegium. If you have researched something in our period or you practice a little known art or craft, writing an article is an excellent way to introduce others to the work you've done. I'm especially interested in academic papers written for A&S contests because, unfortunately, few have time at such an event to read them. Even the judges. Getting them published in the Florilegium lets your hard word benefit the entire Known World. Word format is the easiest for me to handle, but others are possible. You don't have to be finished with your research or have a "perfect" article. Other people can still learn from and be inspired by what you've already done. You keep the copyright and you can always update it in the future. If you're already sent something, but haven't heard back from me, please feel free to email me again. Possibly I didn't get it or I'm waiting for additional permissions or for answers to some questions or even simply having trouble with the original article format. If you see an article in a kingdom, guild or local newsletter that you think others might find useful or interesting, please consider sending me a note about it. I would appreciate the author's contact info if you have it. I will not add an article to the Florilegium without the author's permission, but many authors are too inhibited to send me their own work. If you like an article, then chances are other SCA folks will as well. Thanks, Stefan ???? A Blending of the Past and Present Over the past twenty-five years in an ongoing effort, I have been collecting bits of useful information from various newsgroups, mail lists and articles submitted to me by their authors. In order to make this information available to others, I have placed this information in a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. The Florilegium is on the web at: http://www.florilegium.org For those who would like to see a complete listing of the files in the Florilegium, without paging through subsection after subsection, I have just updated the filelist. Just click on the filelist-list at the top of any section. You can also download this in RTF format and print it out, but be aware that it is now about 60 pages long. I am always interested in new articles. If you have written an article that would be of interest to others in the SCA, please send it to me for possible inclusion in the Florilegium. A&S documentation and class handouts will also often work well. I am especially interested in research papers submitted as A&S entries. Advertisements on the site pay for its upkeep. If you enjoy the Florilegium, please click on an ad or two whenever you are there. THLord Stefan li Rous Ansteorra stefan at florilegium.org Here are the new files for this month: In the CLOTHING section: cl-Romans-art "Basic Roman Clothing" by Despotes Halfdan 'Two Bears' ?zurrson. http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/cl-Romans-art.html In the CRAFTS section: Cuir-Bouilli-art "Hardening Leather" by The Honorable Christophe of Grey. http://www.florilegium.org/files/CRAFTS/Cuir-Bouilli-art.html Paper-Folding-art "Paper Folding in 15th Century Europe" by Donna Serena da Riva. http://www.florilegium.org/files/CRAFTS/Paper-Folding-art.html Vkng-Wir-Weav-art "Viking Wire Weaving" by Sorcha inghean ui Coinin http://www.florilegium.org/files/CRAFTS/Vkng-Wir-Weav-art.html In the ENTERTAINMENT section: Game-History-art "Is This Game Period?" by THL Dagonell Collingwood of Emerald Lake. http://www.florilegium.org/files/ENTERTAINMENT/Game-History-art.html In the PERFORMANCE-ARTS section: Drottkvoett-art "Dr?ttkv?tt or That Old Norse Poetry Thing" by Baron Fridrikr Tomasson. http://www.florilegium.org/files/PERFORMANCE-ARTS/Drottkvoett-art.html Updated files: brd-mk-flat-msg Period flat or unleavened bread recipes. favors-msg On the making and giving of favors. c-archery-msg Combat archery in the SCA. charcoal-msg Use and making of charcoal in period. leavening-msg Period leavening agents other than yeast. rice-msg Period rice. Recipes. ---- Copyright 2014, Mark S. Harris. Permission to reprint in SCA-related publications is hereby granted if the file descriptions are left unchanged. Removing any of the updated files listed in order to fit the article into limited publication space is allowed. The article introduction may also be edited, provided the web address and contact info are retained. -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From StefanliRous at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 15:45:42 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 17:45:42 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots Message-ID: <09A4F8B0-6F3F-4877-AB36-7BBF1AC38BD5@gmail.com> <<< Last month my ordinary supermarket was selling packages of four different colours of carrot, with the implication that they were heritage. If I remember correctly, there were white, red, and yellow, as well as a couple of orange. I don't know if they are still being sold. Thorvald >>> Unfortunately, ?heritage? does not necessarily mean ?period?. Another consideration is that orange carrots became popular most likely because they were sweeter and had a better texture. So, for a food dish, just because a carrot isn?t orange doesn?t mean that the taste is closer to period. That other colored carrot may simply be a modern variant with the old color, but with the newer taste. After tasting modern, orange carrots, I?m not sure the general populace (SCA and modern) will accept a different tasting carrot, even if it is a different color. But other colored carrots can add a more medieval feel to a dish. For a lot more carrot info: carrots-msg (61K) 6/12/10 Medieval and period carrots. Colors. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-VEGETABLES/carrots-msg.html Uh. oh. I?ve got about 90K of new material to add to this file. I will try to do that in the next few days. Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Sun Sep 7 15:51:59 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 18:51:59 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots and Rice Message-ID: Depends. Charlemagne's Capitulary De Villis famously includes a long list of vegetables and herbs to be grown (even if translations of these tend to be iffy). _http://books.google.com/books?id=oJowAAAAYAAJ&dq=%22de%20villis%22%20jardin &pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false_ (http://books.google.com/books?id=oJowAAAAYAAJ&dq="de%20villis"%20jardin&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false) The 1321 accounts for a future bishop's estate mention wild leeks, leeks, cabbage, onions, scallions, garlic, broad beans, peas, spinach, lettuce, borage, orache, chard or cardoon, spring onion, parsley, hyssop, Caulet cabbage, and clary. http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/04/beyond-peacocks-what-most-medieval.html No doubt similar accounts can be found, as well as the various literary references to specific foods. Otherwise, there are non-manorial sources. A 14th century dietetic for a monastery in Liege mentions: broad beans, peas with bacon; long vegetables, leeks (as a dish, in tarts, balls, in scabwort); greens in milk, turnip greens (in milk); greens/herbs; parsley, parsley roots, hyssop; root vegetables; onions and green onions, civet (with onions), garlic, yellow garlic. http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/02/a-fourteenth-century-dietetic-belgian.h tml Among the foods at the hospital of Hesdin were broad beans, peas, beets, borage, cress, parsley, onion, garlic, apples, pears, walnuts, cherries, peaches, and strawberries. http://leslefts.blogspot.com/2014/03/french-hospital-food-in-middle-ages.htm l Jim Chevallier Beside Bolivar: The Edec?n Demarquet https://www.createspace.com/4871441 "Demarquet does not know how to lie or slander; I believe him loyal and sincere." Simon Bolivar In a message dated 9/7/2014 12:53:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, lordhunt at gmail.com writes: I ask because vegetables and fruits don?t appear in accounts of medieval manors. I suppose they were collecting their seeds and planting them instead of going to a garden center to buy a package. From lcm at jeffnet.org Sun Sep 7 19:56:58 2014 From: lcm at jeffnet.org (Laura C. Minnick) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2014 19:56:58 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots and Rice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <540D1AFA.6080202@jeffnet.org> > In a message dated 9/7/2014 12:53:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > lordhunt at gmail.com writes: > I ask because vegetables and fruits don?t appear in accounts of medieval > manors. I suppose they were collecting their seeds and planting them instead > of going to a garden center to buy a package. > There's a listing in a Carolingian manorial record called the Capitulaire de Villis (basically instructions from Charles to the managers of his estates) online at http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/capitulare/latin2english.html The food-related stuff is near the bottom of the page. Liutgard -- "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Albus Dumbledore ~~~Follow my Queenly perambulations at: http://slugcrossings.blogspot.com/ From jimcheval at aol.com Sun Sep 7 20:12:19 2014 From: jimcheval at aol.com (James Chevallier) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 23:12:19 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots and Rice In-Reply-To: <540D1AFA.6080202@jeffnet.org> References: <540D1AFA.6080202@jeffnet.org> Message-ID: <8D19929D5AADAFE-2174-29CE4@webmail-vm067.sysops.aol.com> There's a listing in a Carolingian manorial record called the Capitulaire de Villis (basically instructions from Charles to the managers of his estates) online at http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/capitulare/latin2english.html The food-related stuff is near the bottom of the page. This is a very useful and generally well done site. Just be aware that the translations they offer seem to be old ones and certainly are not accurate in some cases. It's also useful to look at the Brevium Exempla, which were actual inventories of estates, as opposed to the theoretical guidelines of De Villis: http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/brevium/site.html The contrast is fairly striking. One very frustrating point is that fasiloum (translated in the De Villis as "kidney bean") doss not appear, just as nothing corresponding to it seems to appear in archeology either. Clearly - whatever it exactly was - it existed in early Medieval France, but as a practical matter it always seems to be broad beans and field peas that are actually noted. Another famous source is the Plan of St. Gall, though the layout of the crops may have been completely theoretical: http://www.stgallplan.org/en/index_plan.html Jim Chevallier www.chezjim.com -----Original Message----- From: Laura C. Minnick To: Cooks within the SCA Sent: Sun, Sep 7, 2014 7:57 pm Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrots and Rice > In a message dated 9/7/2014 12:53:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, > lordhunt at gmail.com writes: > I ask because vegetables and fruits don?t appear in accounts of medieval > manors. I suppose they were collecting their seeds and planting them instead > of going to a garden center to buy a package. > There's a listing in a Carolingian manorial record called the Capitulaire de Villis (basically instructions from Charles to the managers of his estates) online at http://www.le.ac.uk/hi/polyptyques/capitulare/latin2english.html The food-related stuff is near the bottom of the page. Liutgard -- "It is our choices Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." -Albus Dumbledore ~~~Follow my Queenly perambulations at: http://slugcrossings.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From StefanliRous at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 20:42:24 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2014 22:42:24 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] raising food for feasts, evidence for vegetables Message-ID: <50A40DD9-D70A-45B2-B15F-20ACFA7EB6AA@gmail.com> Susan said: <<< When you are preparing feasts, do you purposely grown specific vegetables in your gardens? Like if you plant white carrots, you would probably charge the cost for the seeds and roughly estimate the water and any other items used to grow them? >>> It has been done in multiple places, although I?ve mostly seen it done with animals as opposed to vegetables. A lady in my area raised quail, I think it was, for a feast she did. From some previous discussions: rasng-fd-fsts-msg (8K) 9/ 5/05 Raising plants and animals for SCA feasts http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/rasng-fd-fsts-msg.html <<< I ask because vegetables and fruits don?t appear in accounts of medieval manors. I suppose they were collecting their seeds and planting them instead of going to a garden center to buy a package. >>> This could be one reason. Here is evidence that raw vegetables and fruits were eaten in period, although they seldom show up in feast menus. raw-fruit-vg-msg (29K) 9/23/10 Evidence that raw fruits and vegetables were eaten in period. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/raw-fruit-vg-msg.html Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Sun Sep 7 21:12:00 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 00:12:00 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots and Rice Message-ID: <142ce.766181e6.413e8690@aol.com> Oops. That's the whole plan. Here's the garden: _http://www.stgallplan.org/StGallDB/plan_components/zoomify/13?file=%2Fbasel 3%2Fklosterplan_recto_basel3%2F&x=-0.228908684104621&y=0.32644023596 5028&zoom=16.9299759320648_ (http://www.stgallplan.org/StGallDB/plan_components/zoomify/13?file=/basel3/klosterplan_recto_basel3/&x=-0.228908684 104621&y=0.326440235965028&zoom=16.9299759320648) The herbs in it were: _http://books.google.com/books?id=wb_UMcH5C7EC&lpg=PA177&ots=m6NchxpZGT&dq=% 22St.%20Gall%22%20rose%2C%20rue%20sage&pg=PA176#v=onepage&q&f=false_ (http://books.google.com/books?id=wb_UMcH5C7EC&lpg=PA177&ots=m6NchxpZGT&dq="St.%20G all"%20rose,%20rue%20sage&pg=PA176#v=onepage&q&f=false) In a similar Carolingian vein is Strabo's poem on his garden: _http://books.google.com/books?id=_FZUMjr-kUUC&lpg=PA8&dq=inauthor%3Astrabo% 20garden&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false_ (http://books.google.com/books?id=_FZUMjr-kUUC&lpg=PA8&dq=inauthor:strabo%20garden&pg=PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false) Note that the only root vegetable he mentions is the radish. The Romans wrote specifically of parsnips and carrots, though the distinction was not always clear. But medieval references are often to 'roots', which could of course include carrots. Or not. Aldebrandino of Siena (13th) mentions parsnips but not carrots (though I'd have to look further to see if the distinction was important at the time.) Vilanova, in the same period, does not seem to mention either. Jim Chevallier Beside Bolivar: The Edec?n Demarquet _https://www.createspace.com/4871441_ (http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html) "Demarquet does not know how to lie or slander; I believe him loyal and sincere." Simon Bolivar In a message dated 9/7/2014 8:12:19 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time, jimcheval at aol.com writes: Another famous source is the Plan of St. Gall, though the layout of the crops may have been completely theoretical: http://www.stgallplan.org/en/index_plan.html From gothwalk at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 02:05:48 2014 From: gothwalk at gmail.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 10:05:48 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: <540A5CBE.5080700@daviddfriedman.com> References: <540A5CBE.5080700@daviddfriedman.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 2:00 AM, David Friedman wrote: The soused eggplant would work as a side dish, and can be made long in > advance?I brought some to Pennsic. Possibly with crumbly crackers or bread > of Abu Hamsa to eat it on. > Makable in advance is a strong point in favour, it has to be said. > My daughter was head cook a while ago for a feast largely from al-Warraq. > One thing she did was khall wa zayt, which is a cold vegetable dish to be > served with chicken. We also did "A cold dish of dressed carrots" (p. 228) > and it was quite good. > > You could try "A recipe for white beans" (p. 295.) > > You could try one of the baridas of beans (pp, 233-4). I think they are > intended to be done with fresh favas, which I've been sometimes able to get > but you may not be. I'm not sure how well they would work with dried favas, > but you could experiment. There are two more baridas of fava beans on pp. > 229-30 that turned out pretty well when we tried them. But skinning the > beans was a bit of a nuisance. These are excellent recommendations, thank you! I don't think I'll be able to get fresh fava beans here, although I'll enquire with some of the suppliers and see what could be mustered. If not, I'll try dried in advance, and see how that comes out. Le meas, Aodh -- http://about.me/drewshiel "Luck affects everything. Let your hook always be cast; in the stream where you least expect it there will be a fish." -- Ovid. From gothwalk at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 02:13:29 2014 From: gothwalk at gmail.com (Drew Shiel) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 10:13:29 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Side Dishes for al-Warraq In-Reply-To: <23456099.1410033829986.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23456099.1410033829986.JavaMail.root@mswamui-chipeau.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 9:03 PM, wrote: I would suggest that no rice be served at the feast unless it is in one of > the aforementioned dishes. Clearly rice topped with another dish was not > part of the dining of the elite in the 9th and 10th centuries. Don't give > in to a modern stereotype. > I shall try to construct the meal around bread, then - and I should be able to get naans and other more authentic styles of bread reasonably easily. I reckon people will cope without rice. On a related topic, is there any feeling as to whether dishes should come out in several courses, or all be brought out at once? I get the feeling from some of the accompanying prose and poetry in al-Warraq that all at once (maybe with some of the bazmaward "sandwiches" as a taster a little before the rest), with sweeter things to follow, is acceptable for the period. Le meas, Aodh -- http://about.me/drewshiel "Luck affects everything. Let your hook always be cast; in the stream where you least expect it there will be a fish." -- Ovid. From karobert at unm.edu Mon Sep 8 08:44:10 2014 From: karobert at unm.edu (Kathleen Roberts) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 15:44:10 +0000 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Carrots In-Reply-To: <540BA940.1050707@telusplanet.net> References: <851E48C233CD4A66B2831F4B2677B439@Vishnu> <540BA940.1050707@telusplanet.net> Message-ID: If you haven't worked with them, beware that the red/purple carrots turn every other color in the pot dingy if not purple. These are best roasted. Cailte -----Original Message----- From: Sca-cooks [mailto:sca-cooks-bounces+karobert=unm.edu at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of James Prescott Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2014 6:39 PM To: Cooks within the SCA Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] Carrots Last month my ordinary supermarket was selling packages of four different colours of carrot, with the implication that they were heritage. If I remember correctly, there were white, red, and yellow, as well as a couple of orange. I don't know if they are still being sold. Thorvald On 2014-09-06, 15:00, Terry Decker wrote: > Usually, I just ignore the issue. According to a number of sources > (which may be proved wrong by DNA analysis), the orange carrot is > derived from the yellow. Ibn-al-Awwam noted carrots being cultivated > at Seville in the 12th Century. There are no particular details about > the plant, but they were likely red carrots which started appearing in > other European countries in the 13th and 14th Century. Prior to the > 13th Century in Europe, white carrots would have been the norm and > they persisted in French cooking until well after red and yellow > carrots became the established order. I don't know of a commercial > source for white carrots, but the dark purple "reds" are available at > some specialty grocers. The forerunners of the modern orange carrots > started showing up in the Netherlands and England in the 16th Century. > > I have seen no contemporary reference that ties the development of the > orange carrot to he House of Orange. The hybridization was to produce > a sweeter, better textured carrot and the color was incidental nationalism. > > Bear > > -----Original Message----- From: Susan Lord Williams > > How do you handle carrots in medieval feasts as they were not orange > until the Dutch developed them with the rise of the House of Orange? > > Technically, medieval carrots should be white. Do I recall red carrots > at some point? Sometimes I have found white carrots in Spanish markets > but not in America. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From StefanliRous at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:17:15 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2014 19:17:15 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] ME/Islamic feasts Message-ID: <5AC1DF75-5873-4A85-8DD6-D002676F49FF@gmail.com> <<< On a related topic, is there any feeling as to whether dishes should come out in several courses, or all be brought out at once? I get the feeling from some of the accompanying prose and poetry in al-Warraq that all at once (maybe with some of the bazmaward "sandwiches" as a taster a little before the rest), with sweeter things to follow, is acceptable for the period. Le meas, Aodh >>> I believe that the style of Middle Eastern feast serving may have changed over time. This Florilegium file might be of use: ME-feasts-msg (37K) 5/30/10 Middle Eastern feasts. sitting, serving. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/ME-feasts-msg.html Here are also some reports on how other Middle Eastern/Islamic feasts have been done in the SCA: Al-Halfla-art (18K) 2/15/09 Al Halfla 2009 event day boards by Lady Adelisa di Salerno (was Gianotta). http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/Al-Halfla-art.html Andalusan-Fst-msg (8K) 10/26/02 An Andalusian summer banquet by Giles de Laval. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/Andalusan-Fst-msg.html Islamic-Feast-art (20K) 5/27/99 "An Islamic Feast in a Barbarian Court? by al-Sayyid A'aql ibn Rashid al-Zib. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/Islamic-Feast-art.html ME-Refrsh-Tbl-art (28K) 9/ 7/08 A Middle Eastern themed refreshment table by Urtatim at Mists Coronation. Recipes. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/ME-Refrsh-Tbl-art.html Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Mon Sep 8 21:19:57 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 00:19:57 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] OT: Law and Order Message-ID: <7c33c.1e854cf4.413fd9f6@aol.com> 'I ain't no gang member." "No? You've got SCA tattooed on your nails." Jim Chevallier Beside Bolivar: The Edec?n Demarquet _https://www.createspace.com/4871441_ (http://www.chezjim.com/food/pre-v/comparisons.html) "Demarquet does not know how to lie or slander; I believe him loyal and sincere." Simon Bolivar From dephelps at embarqmail.com Tue Sep 9 04:24:06 2014 From: dephelps at embarqmail.com (Daniel And elizabeth phelps ) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 07:24:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Sca-cooks] ME/Islamic feasts In-Reply-To: <5AC1DF75-5873-4A85-8DD6-D002676F49FF@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2032187692.51396413.1410261846627.JavaMail.root@embarqmail.com> Well that feast described in 1001 Nights would suggest that courses were served sequentially. Of course you have to decide when the original story was set down and how it may have changed over time and repetition. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stefan li Rous" To: "SCA-Cooks maillist SCA-Cooks" Sent: Monday, September 8, 2014 8:17:15 PM Subject: [Sca-cooks] ME/Islamic feasts <<< On a related topic, is there any feeling as to whether dishes should come out in several courses, or all be brought out at once? I get the feeling from some of the accompanying prose and poetry in al-Warraq that all at once (maybe with some of the bazmaward "sandwiches" as a taster a little before the rest), with sweeter things to follow, is acceptable for the period. Le meas, Aodh >>> I believe that the style of Middle Eastern feast serving may have changed over time. This Florilegium file might be of use: ME-feasts-msg (37K) 5/30/10 Middle Eastern feasts. sitting, serving. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEASTS/ME-feasts-msg.html Here are also some reports on how other Middle Eastern/Islamic feasts have been done in the SCA: Al-Halfla-art (18K) 2/15/09 Al Halfla 2009 event day boards by Lady Adelisa di Salerno (was Gianotta). http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/Al-Halfla-art.html Andalusan-Fst-msg (8K) 10/26/02 An Andalusian summer banquet by Giles de Laval. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/Andalusan-Fst-msg.html Islamic-Feast-art (20K) 5/27/99 "An Islamic Feast in a Barbarian Court? by al-Sayyid A'aql ibn Rashid al-Zib. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/Islamic-Feast-art.html ME-Refrsh-Tbl-art (28K) 9/ 7/08 A Middle Eastern themed refreshment table by Urtatim at Mists Coronation. Recipes. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FEAST-REVIEWS/ME-Refrsh-Tbl-art.html Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From lordhunt at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 14:34:54 2014 From: lordhunt at gmail.com (Susan Lord Williams) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2014 18:34:54 -0300 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coarse for feasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Concerning the order of the medieval feast, Ziryab came to the Hispano-Muslim court of Cordoba, Spain from the Orient at the beginning of the 9th century. Prior to that and after the Romans, the Visigoths, in Spain, served all dishes at the same time, sweet and salty. Ziryab established or reestablish an order to the presentation of courses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziryab: Cuisine He was an arbiter of culinary fashion and taste, who also "revolutionized the local cuisine" by introducing new fruit and vegetables such asasparagus, and by introducing the three-course meal served on leathern tablecloths, insisting that meals should be served in three separate courses consisting of soup, the main course, and dessert. He also introduced the use of crystal as a container for drinks, which was more effective than metal. This claim is supported by accounts of him cutting large crystals into cups with the only tool capable of doing such a feat in his time which was his mind.[citation needed] goblets.[29] Prior to his time, food was served plainly on platters on bare tables, as was the case with the Romans.? > The question then would be did Hispnao-Muslim or Bagdad culinary customs or Knights, which certainly catered to this order of courses, get to the scene of your banquet. When I do banquets, I stick to the Ziryab style to give my kitchen help and waiters breathers. All at once is almost impossible to serve all warm. I think part of a good feast is to eat a little and chat with diner partners. Then eat a little more and chat some more. Fast food gluttons can go to McDonalds if they are too vulgar to savor the cuisine. and appreciate the ambiance. From mistressaldyth at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 08:56:03 2014 From: mistressaldyth at gmail.com (Deborah Hammons) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 09:56:03 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages Message-ID: Greetings everyone. I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period sources for dried or smoked sausage. Thanks! Aldyth From carlton_bach at yahoo.de Thu Sep 11 09:19:40 2014 From: carlton_bach at yahoo.de (Volker Bach) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:19:40 +0100 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1410452380.48059.YahooMailNeo@web133205.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> There are several sausage recipes I'm aware of that require drying (Welserin's sausages for salad and 'Italian sausages' from a sixteenth-century middle low German print), but they do not involve deer. Smoking seems to have been common, though the only recipe that specifically is for a smoked sausage I knowq is lucanicae. YIS Giano Deborah Hammons schrieb am 17:56 Donnerstag, 11.September 2014: Greetings everyone. I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period sources for dried or smoked sausage. Thanks! Aldyth _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From ddfr at daviddfriedman.com Thu Sep 11 10:38:12 2014 From: ddfr at daviddfriedman.com (David Friedman) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 10:38:12 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coarse for feasts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5411DE04.6070702@daviddfriedman.com> Manuscrito Anonimo has a discussion of the question: The first dish to be presented is a feminine one, such as /baqliyya mukarrara/ and the various kinds of /taf? y? s/; after this the dish /jimli/; then /muthallath/ (meat cooked with vegetables, vinegar and saffron); then the dish of /murri/; then /mukhallal/ (a vinegared dish); then /mu'assal/ (a honeyed dish); then /fartun/; then another /mu'assal/. This is the succession of the seven dishes and the order in which they are eaten. Many of the great figures and their companions order [p. 25, recto] that the separate dishes be placed on each table before the diners, one after another; and by my life, this is more beautiful than putting an uneaten mound all on the table, and it is more elegant, better-bred, and modern; this has been the practice of the people of /al-Andalus/ and the West, of their rulers, great figures, and men of merit from the days of 'Umar b. 'Abd al-'Aziz[1] <#_ftn1> and the Banu Umayya to the present.[2] <#_ftn2> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [1] <#_ftnref1>An Umayyad caliph. (HM) [2] <#_ftnref2>The practice of serving a dinner in courses, so characteristic of /Al-Andalus/, is not found in Baghdad or Damascus. It was introduced to Spain by a Persian musician and /arbiter elegantiarum/ named Ziryab, who had been driven from Baghdad by Ishaq al-Mausili as a dangerous rival and found a home in the Umayyad court. (CP) This was in the ninth century. (DF) When we did a feast at thirty year, wonderfully supported by the local cooks, we did the old-fashioned (and eastern rather than western) style, which we found a good deal easier. Each table gets a platter with a mound of rice and several main dishes on the rice. Platters assembled in the kitchen, and servers only have to carry out food once. I'm pretty sure I saw somewhere a modern account of service somewhere in the middle east which seemed to be still doing it in the way that the Andalusian source argues against. On 9/9/14, 2:34 PM, Susan Lord Williams wrote: > Concerning the order of the medieval feast, Ziryab came to the Hispano-Muslim court of Cordoba, Spain from the Orient at the beginning of the 9th century. Prior to that and after the Romans, the Visigoths, in Spain, served all dishes at the same time, sweet and salty. Ziryab established or reestablish an order to the presentation of courses: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ziryab: Cuisine He was an arbiter of culinary fashion and taste, who also "revolutionized the local cuisine" by introducing new fruit and vegetables such asasparagus, and by introducing the three-course meal served on leathern tablecloths, insisting that meals should be served in three separate courses consisting of soup, the main course, and dessert. He also introduced the use of crystal as a container for drinks, which was more effective than metal. This claim is supported by accounts of him cutting large crystals into cups with the only tool capable of doing such a feat in his time which was his mind.[citation needed] goblets.[29] Prior to his time, food was served plainly on platters on bare tables, as was the case with the Romans.? > The question then would be did Hispnao-Muslim or Bagdad culinary customs or Knights, which certainly catered to this order of courses, get to the scene of your banquet. > > When I do banquets, I stick to the Ziryab style to give my kitchen help and waiters breathers. All at once is almost impossible to serve all warm. > > I think part of a good feast is to eat a little and chat with diner partners. Then eat a little more and chat some more. Fast food gluttons can go to McDonalds if they are too vulgar to savor the cuisine. and appreciate the ambiance. > > > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > > -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/ From johnnae at mac.com Thu Sep 11 10:38:54 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 13:38:54 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02C9A78D-AF2D-4849-ACB9-8FC1A2BAEC83@mac.com> You might try this one. Not smoked though. http://www.greneboke.com/recipes/venisonsausage.shtml There is a book called The Venison Sausage Cookbook that might be of interest if you have lots of fresh venison to process. Johnnae Sent from my iPad > On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:56 AM, Deborah Hammons wrote: > > Greetings everyone. I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium > to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period > sources for snipped From ddfr at daviddfriedman.com Thu Sep 11 10:44:00 2014 From: ddfr at daviddfriedman.com (David Friedman) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 10:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages In-Reply-To: <1410452380.48059.YahooMailNeo@web133205.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> References: <1410452380.48059.YahooMailNeo@web133205.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5411DF60.30402@daviddfriedman.com> Le Menagier has a sausage hung in a chimney where a fire is kept all the year. A local expert on sausage and other ways of mistreating meat is wulfric, the mad baker. madbaker at pobox.com. He has a file of information at: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KIiF8ly3RZQiIJQ_UjMJwYWjwNBzVWnXOPlPT7wUBqI/edit On 9/11/14, 9:19 AM, Volker Bach wrote: > There are several sausage recipes I'm aware of that require drying (Welserin's sausages for salad and 'Italian sausages' from a sixteenth-century middle low German print), but they do not involve deer. Smoking seems to have been common, though the only recipe that specifically is for a smoked sausage I knowq is lucanicae. > > YIS > > Giano > > > > Deborah Hammons schrieb am 17:56 Donnerstag, 11.September 2014: > > > > Greetings everyone. > > I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium > to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period > sources for dried or smoked sausage. Thanks! > > Aldyth > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > > -- David Friedman www.daviddfriedman.com http://daviddfriedman.blogspot.com/ From rcarrollmann at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 10:46:43 2014 From: rcarrollmann at gmail.com (Robin Carroll-Mann) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 13:46:43 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages In-Reply-To: <5411DF60.30402@daviddfriedman.com> References: <1410452380.48059.YahooMailNeo@web133205.mail.ir2.yahoo.com> <5411DF60.30402@daviddfriedman.com> Message-ID: That file has venison sausage recipes but they're not smoked/dried Brighid ni Chiarain MKA: Robin Carroll-Mann On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 1:44 PM, David Friedman wrote: > Le Menagier has a sausage hung in a chimney where a fire is kept all the > year. > > A local expert on sausage and other ways of mistreating meat is wulfric, > the mad baker. madbaker at pobox.com. > > He has a file of information at: > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KIiF8ly3RZQiIJQ_ > UjMJwYWjwNBzVWnXOPlPT7wUBqI/edit > > From StefanliRous at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 13:25:00 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:25:00 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages Message-ID: Aldyth said: <<< I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period sources for dried or smoked sausage. >>> sausages-msg (208K) 7/28/13 Period sausages. Making sausage. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/sausages-msg.html From the sausages-msg file: > From Sabina Welserin: 167 To make venison sausag Take the liver and the lungs from a red deer, also good roast meat and deer fat, bacon, spices, saffron, ginger and mace as well, chop it all together and cook the sausage in a suitable broth. > From Marx Rumpolt: Venison Sausage 13 W?rst von Hirschendarm. Nimm den Hirschendarm/ unnd lasz ihn sauber auszschleimen/ ist er feiszt/ unnd nicht Weidewundt/ so lasz es daran/ Nmm die innwendigen Braten/ und das feiszt/ so bey den Nieren ligt/ und ein wenig Ochsenfeiszt darzu / So wird es desto wolgeschmacker. Denn das Hirschfeiszt ist gar herb unnd hart/ wenns kalt wirt/ unnd wenn mans isset/ bleibet es einem an Gaumen hengen Ist aber besser/ man nemme Speck darzu/ und hack es durcheinander mit dem Hirschfleisch/ mach es ab mit Gew?rz/ Pfeffer und Ingwer/ schlag Eyer darunter/ und f?ll den Darm damit/ bindts zu mit einem Spagat/ und wirff in in heisz gesotten Wasser/ und laz ihn gar in die Statt sieden / legs auff einen Roszt / unnd breuns ab/ auff allen beyden seiten/ gib es darnach trucken auff ein Tisch / dasz fein warm ist. Und solche W?rst kanstu kochen/ es sey gelb oder weisz / Pettersilgen Wurzel/ oder gr?nen Kr?uern/ auch mit einer guten Rindtfleischbr?h seindt sie wolgeschmack/ Magst sie auch in einem Pfeffer zurichten/ auch die D?rm zerschnitten/ und mit den S?lzen gegeben/ auch auff Ungerisch/ dasz sie gef?llt seyn mit Eyern und Reisz/ wie man die Ochsend?m f?lt. Sausage of venison intestine. Take the venison intestine/ and clean it well (remove the slime)/ (if) it is whole/ and not (damaged?) / so leave it together/ Take the inner roasts/ and the fat/ that is near the kidneys/ and also some ox fat thereto/so it will be tastier. Then the venison fat is strong and hard when it is cold/ and when one eats it/ it catches in the gums/ It is better/ (if) one takes bacon/ and mix (hack) it with the venison (meat)/ season it with spices/ pepper and ginger/ beat egs thereunder/ and fill the intestine therewith/ tie it shut with a string/ and throw it in hot boiled water/ and let it simmer in this way/ lay it on a rack/ and burn (roast) it off/ on both sides/ give it (serve it) dry to the table/ that it is nice ad warm. And you can cook such sausage/ be it yellow or white/ parsley root/ or green herbs/ also with a good beef broth is it welltasting/ If you like you may prepare it in a pepper (sauce?)/ also the intestine cut up/ and added into the brawn/ also in the) Hungarian (manner)/ that it is filled with eggs and rice/ as one fills an ox intestine. ==================== I got beaten to welserin and rumpoldt(which are really the best), but the Inntalkochbuch (15th cent.) has two others that might be helpful: <<19> Von wiltpr?t w?rst machen Hakch das fleisch chlain vnd hakch einen spek darein chlain vnd nim zu iglicher wurst XVI ayer vnd mach das wol ab mit dem ge-? w?rtz vnd vberprenn es ein wenig vnd legs auf einen rost vnd richcz an. Venison sausages Chop themeat and chop bacon into it, take 16 eggs with each sausage (batch of sausages?) and spice it well. Scald them quickly, roast on a griddle and serve. ================ Remember that venison is a rather dry meat and as you can see from some of these recipes you need to add some fat to it. This is mentioned in this file, along with other useful things about cooking venison. venison-msg (83K) 3/14/14 Medieval and modern recipes for venison. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/venison-msg.html Aldyth, I?m willing to email you either of these files, if you wish, and it won?t overwhelm your phone. Let me know if you want these in Word, HTML or text formats. Stefan -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 11 17:28:20 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 17:28:20 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coarse for feasts Message-ID: <24546088.1410481701244.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Susan Lord Williams wrote: > Concerning the order of the medieval feast, Ziryab came to the Hispano-Muslim court of > Cordoba, Spain from the Orient at the beginning of the 9th century. Prior to that and > after the Romans, the Visigoths, in Spain, served all dishes at the same time, sweet and > salty. Ziryab established or reestablish an order to the presentation of courses: [SNIP] > by introducing the three-course meal served on leathern tablecloths, insisting that meals should > be served in three separate courses consisting of soup, the main course, and dessert. [SNIP] > The question then would be did Hispnao-Muslim or Bagdad culinary customs or Knights, which > certainly catered to this order of courses, get to the scene of your banquet. Since the original poster was planning a feast based on ibn Sayyar al-Warraq's recipes from 9th and 10th century Baghdad, and not in al-Andalus, i would suggest serving based on the descriptions by the author/compiler, and not based on Ziryab, who had his own agenda from what i've read. It's pretty clear from al-Warraq's writing that he envisioned a meal of several courses and not all dishes served at once. He also specifies different types of dishes in each course. For him the first course was cold dishes. I don't recall any soup recipes in his book - but it has ca. 615 recipes and i may have forgotten the soups. > When I do banquets, I stick to the Ziryab style to give my kitchen help and waiters > breathers. All at once is almost impossible to serve all warm. When i do SCA feasts i have the meal divided into courses, each with multiple dishes, ideally based on the serving method of the culture that is the source of the recipes. Since we have servers to bring the dishes to each of 8 or more tables, it is easy to serve all the warm dishes warm to 60 or 150 or more people. If i were serving at home, i would reduce the number of dishes -- one feast i did had 26 dishes in 6 courses - i wouldn't do that at home -- but keep them organized by course, as did al-Warraq. Ziryab may have had something new to bring to al-Andalus, but his dinner service wasn't appreciably different from al-Warraq's. Urtatim From agora158 at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 17:34:25 2014 From: agora158 at gmail.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Ana_Vald=C3=A9s?=) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 21:34:25 -0300 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Coarse for feasts In-Reply-To: <24546088.1410481701244.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24546088.1410481701244.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Is Zyriab manuscripts online in same place? I am going to give a course in Montevideo at the Spanish Cultural Center and I want to try same Arabic dishes. Besides we are going to receive a hundred refugees from Syria's christian communities, deplaced from Aleppo and we want to cook some special dishes for them. Ana On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 9:28 PM, wrote: > Susan Lord Williams wrote: > > Concerning the order of the medieval feast, Ziryab came to the > Hispano-Muslim court of > > Cordoba, Spain from the Orient at the beginning of the 9th century. > Prior to that and > > after the Romans, the Visigoths, in Spain, served all dishes at the same > time, sweet and > > salty. Ziryab established or reestablish an order to the presentation of > courses: > [SNIP] > > by introducing the three-course meal served on leathern tablecloths, > insisting that meals should > > be served in three separate courses consisting of soup, the main course, > and dessert. > [SNIP] > > The question then would be did Hispnao-Muslim or Bagdad culinary customs > or Knights, which > > certainly catered to this order of courses, get to the scene of your > banquet. > > Since the original poster was planning a feast based on ibn Sayyar > al-Warraq's recipes from 9th and 10th century Baghdad, and not in > al-Andalus, i would suggest serving based on the descriptions by the > author/compiler, and not based on Ziryab, who had his own agenda from what > i've read. > > It's pretty clear from al-Warraq's writing that he envisioned a meal of > several courses and not all dishes served at once. He also specifies > different types of dishes in each course. For him the first course was cold > dishes. I don't recall any soup recipes in his book - but it has ca. 615 > recipes and i may have forgotten the soups. > > > When I do banquets, I stick to the Ziryab style to give my kitchen help > and waiters > > breathers. All at once is almost impossible to serve all warm. > > When i do SCA feasts i have the meal divided into courses, each with > multiple dishes, ideally based on the serving method of the culture that is > the source of the recipes. Since we have servers to bring the dishes to > each of 8 or more tables, it is easy to serve all the warm dishes warm to > 60 or 150 or more people. If i were serving at home, i would reduce the > number of dishes -- one feast i did had 26 dishes in 6 courses - i wouldn't > do that at home -- but keep them organized by course, as did al-Warraq. > Ziryab may have had something new to bring to al-Andalus, but his dinner > service wasn't appreciably different from al-Warraq's. > > Urtatim > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > -- http://www.twitter.com/caravia15860606060 http://www.scoop.it/t/art-and-activism/ http://www.scoop.it/t/food-history-and-trivia http://www.scoop.it/t/urbanism-3-0 cell Sweden +4670-3213370 cell Uruguay +598-99470758 "When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been and there you will always long to return. ? Leonardo da Vinci From ranvaig at columbus.rr.com Thu Sep 11 19:40:31 2014 From: ranvaig at columbus.rr.com (Sharon Palmer) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2014 22:40:31 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Greetings everyone. > >I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium >to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period >sources for dried or smoked sausage. Thanks! > >Aldyth Rumpolt has recipes for venison sausage (as well as other sausage recipes) From the menus Sausage made from a deer (Hirsch)/ nicely cooked warm and sprinkled with parsley root and whole pepper. Hirsch (Deer) 13. Sausage from the deer intestines. Take the deer intestines/ and let the slime be cleaned out/ if it is fatty/ and not mortally wounded/ then leave it on/ Take the internal roast/ and the fat/ that lays by the kidneys (suet)/ and a little beef fat with it/ then it becomes even better tasting. Because the venison fat is very bitter and hard/ when it becomes cold/ and if one eats it/ it stays on the roof of the mouth/ But it is better that/ one takes bacon to it/ and chops it through each other with the deer meat/ mixes it with spices/ pepper and ginger/ beats eggs into it/ and stuff the intestines with it/ tie it closed with a string/ and throw it it in hot boiling water/ and let simmer completely to the place (until completely done)/ lay it on a grill/ and brown it/ on all both sides/ then give it dry on a table/ that it is nicely warm. And such sausage you can cook/ be it yellow or white/ parsley root/ or green herbs/ also with a good beef broth is well tasting/ You might also prepare them in a pepper (sauce)/ also the intestines carved/ and given with the brawn/ also/ that they are stuffed with eggs and rice/ as one fills the beef intestines. Hirsch 25. To make Italian Zurwanada (Italian sausage) from the deer. Take the wide meat from the hind quarter/ cut it small with a knife/ take pork from the hindleg/ that is fatty/ chop with the venison/ and take the largest and strongest/ wash it out clean/ and before you reverse it/ then pick the fat completely away from the deer/ leave not even a poppy seed large on it/ because otherwise it quickly becomes rancid/ Then turn it inside out/ and clean the slime out/ and dry it out well with a cloth/ that no drop of water comes in there/ neither outside nor inside/ Then take salt/ put it in a pan/ make it dry and warm/ put it in a mortar/ and pound it well small/ then take it out/ take whole pepper/ put it in a mortar/ beat it a just a little/ that the kernels drop apart/ take the pepper/ and mix it with the salt/ rub the meat/ that you have chopped small/ with it/ that it becomes well salted and spiced. Anyway see/ that you do not put completely to much salt in there/ that it is not over salted. The Italians take everything according to the weight/ but it shows itself quickly/ if there is too much or too little/ one has too much to do/ that one should always carry weights and balance with him. Take the meat/ and stuff it in the intestines/ and press it firmly/ and when you see that the intestine develops bubbles/ and the meat does not come over each other??/ then tamp the intestine with a needle point or a bodkin/ then it it goes even sooner over each other/ and becomes firm/ Tie the sausage closed/ and hang the sausage in smoke/ yet not in a chimney/ that no heat comes to it/ that it only becomes dry/ the longer you let it hang in there/ the better and redder it becomes/ and it keeps a year and a day. However if you are in a crew/ then spread it with olive oil/ and enclose in barrels/ then they keep a year or three. Such sausages are also good to make with beef and pork/ that no fat says on the intestines/ then it does not become rancid/ And such sausages you can well make from clean pork or beef/ with bacon that is not salted/ and the meat/ that belongs in such intestines/ you must not lay it in water/ but rather as it was gutted/ because it is spoiled from the water/ and becomes stinking. If you do not have any intestines/ then take the bladder/ then the sausages become that much thicker and larger/ and when you cook them/ and they are small/ then you should let them simmer an hour or two. However when they are thick and large/ then you must let them simmer an hour four or five/ however that you do not over cook them/ let them become cool/ then you can eat them/ and you can also keep them a week six or seven/ especially in winter/ when you travel over the land/ you can cut a piece from it and eat it anytime/ then you taste it after a good drink. And such sausages one must make in winter/ the colder it is/ the better it is. Is also good for a poor soldier/ that must be in the field a year and a day/ because the pepper and salt conserve it/ becomes good and well tasting. They can also be given for a salad/ and when you carve them/ then pull the skin off/ then you will see the pepper corns between the red meat/ makes one pleased to eat. Dendel (Fallow Deer) 21. ... You can also well make sausages with garlic/ Take no more than fresh bacon and garlic/ cut it into the roast/ pepper it/ and see/ that you do not oversalt it. Take pig intestines/ or from a fallow deer/ clean the slime out/ and make it clean/ stuff the meat in/ thus you have a garlic sausage. Reh (Roe Deer) 11. Sausage from a roe deer. Take the great intestine from the roe/ clean the slime out/ take small roasts/ or the meat from a deer leg/ chop it small with fresh bacon/ spice it with ground pepper/ fill the intestine with it/ you might roast it/ or take it to make in (a sauce)/ it is in good in all sorts of ways. Ranvaig From mistressaldyth at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 10:32:34 2014 From: mistressaldyth at gmail.com (Deborah Hammons) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 11:32:34 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you everyone. The computer is up now. I will try a few and see what looks like a keeper for feast. Aldyth On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Sharon Palmer wrote: > Greetings everyone. >> >> I am working from the phone this week and cannot seem to get the florigium >> to load. After getting two deer, I was wondering if there are period >> sources for dried or smoked sausage. Thanks! >> >> Aldyth >> > > Rumpolt has recipes for venison sausage (as well as other sausage recipes) > > From the menus > Sausage made from a deer (Hirsch)/ nicely cooked warm and sprinkled with > parsley root and whole pepper. > > Hirsch (Deer) 13. Sausage from the deer intestines. Take the deer > intestines/ and let the slime be cleaned out/ if it is fatty/ and not > mortally wounded/ then leave it on/ Take the internal roast/ and the fat/ > that lays by the kidneys (suet)/ and a little beef fat with it/ then it > becomes even better tasting. Because the venison fat is very bitter and > hard/ when it becomes cold/ and if one eats it/ it stays on the roof of the > mouth/ > > But it is better that/ one takes bacon to it/ and chops it through each > other with the deer meat/ mixes it with spices/ pepper and ginger/ beats > eggs into it/ and stuff the intestines with it/ tie it closed with a > string/ and throw it it in hot boiling water/ and let simmer completely to > the place (until completely done)/ lay it on a grill/ and brown it/ on all > both sides/ then give it dry on a table/ that it is nicely warm. > > And such sausage you can cook/ be it yellow or white/ parsley root/ or > green herbs/ also with a good beef broth is well tasting/ You might also > prepare them in a pepper (sauce)/ also the intestines carved/ and given > with the brawn/ also/ that they are stuffed with eggs and rice/ as one > fills the beef intestines. > > > Hirsch 25. To make Italian Zurwanada (Italian sausage) from the deer. > Take the wide meat from the hind quarter/ cut it small with a knife/ take > pork from the hindleg/ that is fatty/ chop with the venison/ and take the > largest and strongest/ wash it out clean/ > > and before you reverse it/ then pick the fat completely away from the > deer/ leave not even a poppy seed large on it/ because otherwise it quickly > becomes rancid/ Then turn it inside out/ and clean the slime out/ and dry > it out well with a cloth/ that no drop of water comes in there/ neither > outside nor inside/ > > Then take salt/ put it in a pan/ make it dry and warm/ put it in a mortar/ > and pound it well small/ then take it out/ take whole pepper/ put it in a > mortar/ beat it a just a little/ that the kernels drop apart/ take the > pepper/ and mix it with the salt/ rub the meat/ that you have chopped > small/ with it/ that it becomes well salted and spiced. > > Anyway see/ that you do not put completely to much salt in there/ that it > is not over salted. The Italians take everything according to the weight/ > but it shows itself quickly/ if there is too much or too little/ one has > too much to do/ that one should always carry weights and balance with him. > > Take the meat/ and stuff it in the intestines/ and press it firmly/ and > when you see that the intestine develops bubbles/ and the meat does not > come over each other??/ then tamp the intestine with a needle point or a > bodkin/ then it it goes even sooner over each other/ and becomes firm/ Tie > the sausage closed/ and hang the sausage in smoke/ yet not in a chimney/ > that no heat comes to it/ that it only becomes dry/ the longer you let it > hang in there/ the better and redder it becomes/ and it keeps a year and a > day. > > However if you are in a crew/ then spread it with olive oil/ and enclose > in barrels/ then they keep a year or three. Such sausages are also good to > make with beef and pork/ that no fat says on the intestines/ then it does > not become rancid/ And such sausages you can well make from clean pork or > beef/ with bacon that is not salted/ and the meat/ that belongs in such > intestines/ you must not lay it in water/ but rather as it was gutted/ > because it is spoiled from the water/ and becomes stinking. > > If you do not have any intestines/ then take the bladder/ then the > sausages become that much thicker and larger/ and when you cook them/ and > they are small/ then you should let them simmer an hour or two. However > when they are thick and large/ then you must let them simmer an hour four > or five/ however that you do not over cook them/ let them become cool/ then > you can eat them/ and you can also keep them a week six or seven/ > > especially in winter/ when you travel over the land/ you can cut a piece > from it and eat it anytime/ then you taste it after a good drink. And such > sausages one must make in winter/ the colder it is/ the better it is. Is > also good for a poor soldier/ that must be in the field a year and a day/ > because the pepper and salt conserve it/ becomes good and well tasting. > They can also be given for a salad/ and when you carve them/ then pull the > skin off/ then you will see the pepper corns between the red meat/ makes > one pleased to eat. > > Dendel (Fallow Deer) 21. ... You can also well make sausages with garlic/ > Take no more than fresh bacon and garlic/ cut it into the roast/ pepper it/ > and see/ that you do not oversalt it. Take pig intestines/ or from a > fallow deer/ clean the slime out/ and make it clean/ stuff the meat in/ > thus you have a garlic sausage. > > > Reh (Roe Deer) 11. Sausage from a roe deer. Take the great intestine > from the roe/ clean the slime out/ take small roasts/ or the meat from a > deer leg/ chop it small with fresh bacon/ spice it with ground pepper/ fill > the intestine with it/ you might roast it/ or take it to make in (a sauce)/ > it is in good in all sorts of ways. > > Ranvaig > > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > From lhart at graycomputer.com Fri Sep 12 10:32:54 2014 From: lhart at graycomputer.com (Lhart) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 10:32:54 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Dried or smoked sausages Message-ID: <1160533019@mail.graytech.net> We will be out of the office Friday September 12th. Please leave a voice mail or email and we will address your need as soon as possible. Thanks! Laureen Hart From johnnae at mac.com Tue Sep 16 17:58:27 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2014 20:58:27 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sweet Science of Sugar Message-ID: <8FEC2CE4-0033-491D-8B1E-83BA8542A7DB@mac.com> Harvard is once again offering the lecture series "Science and Cooking 2014." A collaboration between eminent Harvard researchers and world-class chefs http://www.seas.harvard.edu/cooking This past lecture was on sugar. http://eater.com/archives/2014/09/16/joanne-chang-at-harvard-the-science-of-sugar.php Johnnae Sent from my iPad From jpl at ilk.org Thu Sep 18 16:53:15 2014 From: jpl at ilk.org (Joel Lord) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:53:15 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: [smofs] Update about Devra Langsam In-Reply-To: <541B682A.1010306@panix.com> References: <541B682A.1010306@panix.com> Message-ID: <541B706B.4040908@ilk.org> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [smofs] Update about Devra Langsam Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:18:02 -0400 From: Stuart C. Hellinger Reply-To: SMOFS Mailing list To: SMOFS Mailing list As Professor Farnsworth would say, Good news, everyone!". They are letting Debra escape, er, the rehab center is releasing Devra on Sunday at 1 PM. She still will be limited in what she will b able to do for a while, but she will be going home after eight weeks. She thanks everyone for their best wishes. -SCH! (Stuart C. Hellinger sch at panix.com) -- Remember, it's smofcon.COM or http://smofcon31.org/, not smofcon.ORG smofs mailing list smofs at lists.sflovers.org http://listsmgt.sflovers.org/mailman/listinfo/smofs Sent to Joel Lord at jpl at ilk.org All posts to the SMOFs mailing list are copyright the individual senders. From selene at earthlink.net Thu Sep 18 19:05:49 2014 From: selene at earthlink.net (Susan Fox) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:05:49 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: [smofs] Update about Devra Langsam In-Reply-To: <541B706B.4040908@ilk.org> References: <541B682A.1010306@panix.com> <541B706B.4040908@ilk.org> Message-ID: <541B8F7D.5000004@earthlink.net> Thank you for the update! Even west coast Secret Masters of Fandom are concerned about Devra. Cheers, Selene Colfox aka Susan Fox, tired of fan On 9/18/14, 4:53 PM, Joel Lord wrote: > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: [smofs] Update about Devra Langsam > Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:18:02 -0400 > From: Stuart C. Hellinger > Reply-To: SMOFS Mailing list > To: SMOFS Mailing list > > As Professor Farnsworth would say, Good news, everyone!". > > They are letting Debra escape, er, the rehab center is releasing Devra > on Sunday at 1 PM. She still will be limited in what she will b able to > do for a while, but she will be going home after eight weeks. > > She thanks everyone for their best wishes. > > -SCH! (Stuart C. Hellinger sch at panix.com) From lilinah at earthlink.net Thu Sep 18 19:08:27 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 19:08:27 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy Message-ID: <26613846.1411092507554.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy: From Kitchen to Table by Katherine A. McIver Rowman & Littlefield Studies in Food and Gastronomy Hardcover Due out December 16, 2014 Anyone hears any skuttlebutt about this book? Johnna? Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM) From JIMCHEVAL at aol.com Thu Sep 18 21:01:23 2014 From: JIMCHEVAL at aol.com (JIMCHEVAL at aol.com) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 00:01:23 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] The Getty's Chivalry in the Middle Ages Message-ID: <598ac.6b90b8ec.414d0493@aol.com> OK, honestly I don't have high hopes for this, but for anyone in the LA area who might be tempted: Family Festival celebratingChivalry in the Middle Ages Date: Saturday, September 20, 2014 Time: 10:00 a.m.?6:00 p.m. Admission: Free; no reservations required. Travel with your imagination to the age of chivalry in this daylong festival celebrating knights in armor, ladies of the court and all things noble, inspired by the exhibitionChivalry in the Middle Ages. Listen to tales of Arthur's Round Table and deeds of great bravery through age-old stories and myths. Watch as a master blacksmith demonstrates how to forge a suit of armor, design a family coat of arms, and decorate a goblet for your own royal feast http://www.getty.edu/education/kids_families/programs/center_family_festival .html?utm_source=announcement146&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=announcement1 46 Jim Chevallier Beside Bolivar: The Edec?n Demarquet https://www.createspace.com/4871441 "Demarquet does not know how to lie or slander; I believe him loyal and sincere." Simon Bolivar From morgana at gci.net Thu Sep 18 21:14:56 2014 From: morgana at gci.net (morgana) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 20:14:56 -0800 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Fwd: [smofs] Update about Devra Langsam In-Reply-To: <541B8F7D.5000004@earthlink.net> References: <541B682A.1010306@panix.com> <541B706B.4040908@ilk.org> <541B8F7D.5000004@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7E422252-EDC7-43B9-8975-35B9D06E3BDA@gci.net> On Sep 18, 2014, at 6:05 PM, Susan Fox wrote: > Thank you for the update! Even west coast Secret Masters of Fandom are concerned about Devra. > > Cheers, Selene Colfox > aka Susan Fox, tired of fan I'm no Secret Master of Fandom, but I'd placed orders with Poison Pen Press before I joined the SCA in AS XIII. Good news indeed! Morgana Winter's Gate/Oertha/West From t.d.decker at att.net Thu Sep 18 21:31:58 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2014 23:31:58 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy In-Reply-To: <26613846.1411092507554.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26613846.1411092507554.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3A7B7878369D46159ECA1CBC1B4150A5@Vishnu> McIver is a history prof in Alabama and works with Smithsonian as a subject matter expert for the Italian tours. From the little I've seen, the book is about the structure, operation and social aspects of kitchens and dining rooms in Renaissance Italy rather than a cookbook. Johnna may have a better handle on it than I. Bear -----Original Message----- Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy: From Kitchen to Table by Katherine A. McIver Rowman & Littlefield Studies in Food and Gastronomy Hardcover Due out December 16, 2014 Anyone hears any skuttlebutt about this book? Johnna? Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM) From johnnae at mac.com Fri Sep 19 04:04:18 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2014 07:04:18 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy In-Reply-To: <3A7B7878369D46159ECA1CBC1B4150A5@Vishnu> References: <26613846.1411092507554.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <3A7B7878369D46159ECA1CBC1B4150A5@Vishnu> Message-ID: Some of us have been discussing it already. No reviews outside of the few comments here. https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781442227187 The book is being released as part of a series, but the series is all over the place in terms of topics. https://rowman.com/ISBN/9781442227187 Will have to wait and see when it is published, I guess. Johnnae Sent from my iPad > On Sep 19, 2014, at 12:31 AM, Terry Decker wrote: > > McIver is a history prof in Alabama and works with Smithsonian as a subject matter expert for the Italian tours. From the little I've seen, the book is about the structure, operation and social aspects of kitchens and dining rooms in Renaissance Italy rather than a cookbook. Johnna may have a better handle on it than I. > > Bear > > -----Original Message----- > Cooking and Eating in Renaissance Italy: From Kitchen to Table > by Katherine A. McIver > Rowman & Littlefield Studies in Food and Gastronomy > Hardcover > Due out December 16, 2014 > Anyone hears any skuttlebutt about this book? Johnna? > Urtatim From alyskatharine at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 04:24:36 2014 From: alyskatharine at gmail.com (Elise Fleming) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 07:24:36 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] OOP: Modern Books on Cookery Message-ID: <542006F4.3040303@gmail.com> Greetings! I thought some of you would be interested in one or the other of the six books recommended by the writer David Lebovitz. His new blog is at http://www.davidlebovitz.com/2014/09/six-books-ive-been-enjoying/#more-16472 . Rather than focusing on recipes, it seems that most of these books give the "why". Here's a description of one of his recommended books that describes the "why" for that selection: " '50 Foods' is one of those books that you can learn something with every sentence that you read. So you can open to a chapter and learn why some honeys crystallize and why others remain liquids (and what big manufacturers do to prevent it from happening). Why the best goat milk cheeses are not available in the winter months. How the preparation of rice various from culture to culture ? especially how Asians treat it differently than Italians. And how the normally technique-obsessed French don?t give rice any special treatment at all." Take a look at his blog. He's a fascinating blogger. Alys K. -- Elise Fleming alyskatharine at gmail.com alysk at ix.netcom.com http://damealys.medievalcookery.com/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/8311418 at N08/sets/ From saintphlip at gmail.com Wed Sep 24 15:10:29 2014 From: saintphlip at gmail.com (Saint Phlip) Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 18:10:29 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cooking class- Raisin turnovers Message-ID: https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=850377991654188 -- Saint Phlip So, you think your data is safe? http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/01/23/schneier.google.hacking/index.html?hpt=T2 Heat it up Hit it hard Repent as necessary. Priorities: It's the smith who makes the tools, not the tools which make the smith. .I never wanted to see anybody die, but there are a few obituary notices I have read with pleasure. -Clarence Darrow From johnnae at mac.com Thu Sep 25 11:54:22 2014 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:54:22 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] New Prospect Books titles In-Reply-To: <1411596812.46055.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1411596812.46055.YahooMailBasic@web121406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0FA423D7-4667-40FC-B4B5-447670F0AA02@mac.com> Lots of new interesting items from Prospect Books. Peter Brears' new work is listed as September. Cooking & dining in Tudor and early Stuart England. https://prospectbooks.co.uk/products-page/new-and-forthcoming-titles/cooking-dining-in-tudor-early-stuart-england/ Zinziber. Sauces from Poitou is also listed fro September. Which just hapoens to be that early 12th century manuscript we've discussed in the past. Plus works on quinces and sausages. Johnnae Sent from my iPad > > From ursula at tutelaries.net Fri Sep 26 19:21:29 2014 From: ursula at tutelaries.net (Ursula Georges) Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 21:21:29 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish Message-ID: <54261F29.6030501@tutelaries.net> Recently, we discussed Middle Eastern rice dishes in period. I just got a copy of a translation of Nizam al-Mulk's Seljuk-era Book of Government, and one of the stories involves a dish made of rice and peas. The setup is that Zaid ibn Aslam told a story in which the Commander of the Faithful finds a poor woman boiling a cauldron full of water for her children in the middle of a field: "He ran all the way to the woman and put the bags down in front of her; one of them was full of flour and the other full of rice, fat, and peas. He said to me, 'O Zaid, go into the fields, collect all the sticks and straws you can find and bring them quickly.' I went to look for firewood. Then `Umar took a ewer and fetched some water; he washed the rice and peas, put them in the cauldron and threw in a lump of fat; meanwhile the woman made a large flat round of bread, weeping all the time for joy. I brought the firewood; and with his own hands `Umar heated the cauldron and put the bread under the fire." --Ursula Georges. From jimandandi at cox.net Sat Sep 27 11:54:58 2014 From: jimandandi at cox.net (Jim and Andi) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:54:58 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <032401cfda84$891f6cb0$9b5e4610$@cox.net> I would love to know exactly what the word translated as "peas" was! Madhavi -----Original Message----- From: Sca-cooks [mailto:sca-cooks-bounces+jimandandi=cox.net at lists.ansteorra.org] On Behalf Of Ursula Georges Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 10:21 PM To: sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish Recently, we discussed Middle Eastern rice dishes in period. I just got a copy of a translation of Nizam al-Mulk's Seljuk-era Book of Government, and one of the stories involves a dish made of rice and peas. The setup is that Zaid ibn Aslam told a story in which the Commander of the Faithful finds a poor woman boiling a cauldron full of water for her children in the middle of a field: "He ran all the way to the woman and put the bags down in front of her; one of them was full of flour and the other full of rice, fat, and peas. He said to me, 'O Zaid, go into the fields, collect all the sticks and straws you can find and bring them quickly.' I went to look for firewood. Then `Umar took a ewer and fetched some water; he washed the rice and peas, put them in the cauldron and threw in a lump of fat; meanwhile the woman made a large flat round of bread, weeping all the time for joy. I brought the firewood; and with his own hands `Umar heated the cauldron and put the bread under the fire." --Ursula Georges. _______________________________________________ Sca-cooks mailing list Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From lilinah at earthlink.net Sat Sep 27 14:31:09 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 14:31:09 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish Message-ID: <20671162.1411853470048.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Ursula Georges wrote: > Recently, we discussed Middle Eastern rice dishes in period. I just got > a copy of a translation of Nizam al-Mulk's Seljuk-era Book of > Government, and one of the stories involves a dish made of rice and > peas. The setup is that Zaid ibn Aslam told a story in which the > Commander of the Faithful finds a poor woman boiling a cauldron full of > water for her children in the middle of a field: > > "He ran all the way to the woman and put the bags down in front of her; > one of them was full of flour and the other full of rice, fat, and peas. > He said to me, 'O Zaid, go into the fields, collect all the sticks and > straws you can find and bring them quickly.' I went to look for > firewood. Then 'Umar took a ewer and fetched some water; he washed the > rice and peas, put them in the cauldron and threw in a lump of fat; > meanwhile the woman made a large flat round of bread, weeping all the > time for joy. I brought the firewood; and with his own hands 'Umar > heated the cauldron and put the bread under the fire." Thanks, Ursula! Sounds like a porridge to me, similar to a Persian aash. Madhavi > I would love to know exactly what the word translated as "peas" was! I agree. Possibly (?probably?) some legume in the genus Vigna, such as black-eyed peas, or other cow peas. Urtatim From t.d.decker at att.net Sat Sep 27 14:56:05 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:56:05 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish In-Reply-To: <20671162.1411853470048.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20671162.1411853470048.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: And it might be Pisum sativa, which have been found in Anatolian archeology digs dating back to the 5th and 4th Century BCE. Bear Madhavi > I would love to know exactly what the word translated as "peas" was! I agree. Possibly (?probably?) some legume in the genus Vigna, such as black-eyed peas, or other cow peas. Urtatim From galefridus at optimum.net Sun Sep 28 14:07:20 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 17:07:20 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7D897BD5-5B94-445A-9508-C138C7A7DC43@optimum.net> The Taqwim al-Sihhah (11th century Baghdad) lists grass peas, chick peas, and cow peas. > Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:56:05 -0500 > From: "Terry Decker" > To: , "Cooks within the SCA" > > Subject: Re: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > And it might be Pisum sativa, which have been found in Anatolian archeology > digs dating back to the 5th and 4th Century BCE. > > Bear > > > Madhavi >> I would love to know exactly what the word translated as "peas" was! > > I agree. Possibly (?probably?) some legume in the genus Vigna, such as > black-eyed peas, or other cow peas. > > Urtatim From StefanliRous at gmail.com Mon Sep 29 16:27:22 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 18:27:22 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish Message-ID: <993DCDD6-7F80-4661-BCAC-2A1C72B9B8F7@gmail.com> Galefridus Peregrinus suggested: <<< The Taqwim al-Sihhah (11th century Baghdad) lists grass peas, chick peas, and cow peas. >>> That?s Iraq, not Turkey, but I guess you work with what you can get. What kind of reference is this ?Taqwim al-Sihhah? and how available is it for those researching this area and time? Thanks, Stefan (who named these peas? Obviously not a marketer. :-) ) -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From t.d.decker at att.net Mon Sep 29 20:50:52 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:50:52 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish In-Reply-To: <993DCDD6-7F80-4661-BCAC-2A1C72B9B8F7@gmail.com> References: <993DCDD6-7F80-4661-BCAC-2A1C72B9B8F7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <533E71AE14BA4DE382AA2444D4F6818B@Vishnu> The Taqwim al-sihhah is a work by ibn-Butlan which appears in European translation of the 13th Century as Tacuinum Sanitatis. At the time it was written, Baghdad was part of the Seljuk Empire. There is a copy of the original held by the Aga Khan Museum (which was set to open in Toronto this year). Each of these names is a common name and meant to provide linguistic differentiation as opposed to salability. Each of the peas noted has at least three common names in English just to add to the confusion. BTW, "cowpea" is out of period. Bear -----Original Message----- Galefridus Peregrinus suggested: <<< The Taqwim al-Sihhah (11th century Baghdad) lists grass peas, chick peas, and cow peas. >>> That?s Iraq, not Turkey, but I guess you work with what you can get. What kind of reference is this ?Taqwim al-Sihhah? and how available is it for those researching this area and time? Thanks, Stefan (who named these peas? Obviously not a marketer. :-) ) From StefanliRous at gmail.com Tue Sep 30 09:54:13 2014 From: StefanliRous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 11:54:13 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Congratulations, Urtatim References: Message-ID: Congratulations, Urtatim! Stefan Begin forwarded message: > From: Jenny Andersen > Subject: [Lochac] Stronger Kingdom Fund > Date: September 30, 2014 at 12:26:58 AM CDT > To: "lochac at lochac.sca.org" > Reply-To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" > > Hi all, > all the money for the stronger kingdom fund for this year has been allocated, but if you're thinking of an event for next year and would like to bring an expert/s to your group or have an idea for something that you think would be of benefit to the kingdom, then please put together an application ($500 is the limit) and send it to myself (exchequer at lochac.sca.org) or Caristiona (seneschal at lochac.org.au) and we'll put it before the council of the purse for consideration. > > This year the money has gone towards bringing Master Ruslan to Festival, bringing the Known World tapestry and it's creator out here for the 50th anniversary) and bringing Urtatim (a middle eastern expert) out to next year's Festival and then to Aneala. > > And there's also the Laurel Freedom bus for consideration as well. > > Medb ingen Iasachta > Lochac Exchequer -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From galefridus at optimum.net Tue Sep 30 13:22:35 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:22:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cowpeas (was: seljuk-era rice dish) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <642d8fdb.1206e7.148c83a9483.Webtop.57@optimum.net> Cowpeas are out of period?!? Since when? Some cursory research indicates that they were cultivated in the eastern Mediterranean as far back as 2300 BCE. See: Perrino, P., Laghetti, G., Spagnoletti Zeuli, P. L. & Monti, L.M. (1993) Diversification of cowpea in the Mediterranean and other centres of cultivation. Genetic resources and crop evolution, 40, 121-132. DOI:10.1007/BF00051116 -- Galefridus > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:50:52 -0500 > From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: > [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish > Message-ID: <533E71AE14BA4DE382AA2444D4F6818B at Vishnu> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > reply-type=original > > The Taqwim al-sihhah is a work by ibn-Butlan which appears in European > translation of the 13th Century as Tacuinum Sanitatis. At the time it > was written, Baghdad was part of the Seljuk Empire. There is a copy > of the original held by the Aga Khan Museum (which was set to open in > Toronto this year). > > Each of these names is a common name and meant to provide linguistic > differentiation as opposed to salability. Each of the peas noted has > at least three common names in English just to add to the confusion. > BTW, "cowpea" is out of period. > > Bear > > -----Original Message----- > Galefridus Peregrinus suggested: > <<< The Taqwim al-Sihhah (11th century Baghdad) lists grass peas, > chick peas, and cow peas. >>> > > That?s Iraq, not Turkey, but I guess you work with what you can get. > > What kind of reference is this ?Taqwim al-Sihhah? and how available is > it for those researching this area and time? > > Thanks, > Stefan > (who named these peas? Obviously not a marketer. :-) ) From dmyers at medievalcookery.com Tue Sep 30 13:41:41 2014 From: dmyers at medievalcookery.com (Daniel Myers) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 13:41:41 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cowpeas (was: seljuk-era rice dish) Message-ID: <20140930134141.ed12dd0b5fcfab5c7acb3c004d380fe9.74c0e4c169.wbe@email04.secureserver.net> I believe that Bear meant that the word "cowpea" itself is not period (it was first recorded in the 18th century). - Doc > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Galefridus Peregrinus > Date: Tue, September 30, 2014 4:22 pm > > Cowpeas are out of period?!? Since when? Some cursory research indicates > that they were cultivated in the eastern Mediterranean as far back as > 2300 BCE. See: > > > Perrino, P., Laghetti, G., Spagnoletti Zeuli, P. L. & Monti, L.M. (1993) > Diversification of cowpea in the Mediterranean and other centres of > cultivation. Genetic resources and crop evolution, 40, 121-132. > DOI:10.1007/BF00051116 > > > -- Galefridus > > > Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 22:50:52 -0500 > > From: "Terry Decker" To: "Cooks within the SCA" Subject: Re: > > [Sca-cooks] seljuk-era rice dish > > Message-ID: <533E71AE14BA4DE382AA2444D4F6818B at Vishnu> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="Windows-1252"; > > reply-type=original > > > > The Taqwim al-sihhah is a work by ibn-Butlan which appears in European > > translation of the 13th Century as Tacuinum Sanitatis. At the time it > > was written, Baghdad was part of the Seljuk Empire. There is a copy > > of the original held by the Aga Khan Museum (which was set to open in > > Toronto this year). > > > > Each of these names is a common name and meant to provide linguistic > > differentiation as opposed to salability. Each of the peas noted has > > at least three common names in English just to add to the confusion. > > BTW, "cowpea" is out of period. > > > > Bear > > > > -----Original Message----- > > Galefridus Peregrinus suggested: > > <<< The Taqwim al-Sihhah (11th century Baghdad) lists grass peas, > > chick peas, and cow peas. >>> > > > > That?s Iraq, not Turkey, but I guess you work with what you can get. > > > > What kind of reference is this ?Taqwim al-Sihhah? and how available is > > it for those researching this area and time? > > > > Thanks, > > Stefan > > (who named these peas? Obviously not a marketer. :-) ) > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org From lilinah at earthlink.net Tue Sep 30 13:45:42 2014 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 13:45:42 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Congratulations, Urtatim Message-ID: <32053692.1412109942572.JavaMail.root@elwamui-huard.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >Congratulations, Urtatim! > >Stefan Thank you, Stefan. I only found out last night myself. I have been keeping the negotiations kinda quiet, since i'm not a Laurel and usually they only bring Laurels over. Apparently enough people are familiar with my work via internet and wanted me to come anyway. I had to submit some documents indicating what i can do and some letters of recommendation from people who have attended my classes. The plan is for me to go in the spring of 2015 to teach at Rowany Festival in/near Sydney, then to cross the continent at teach at another event in the Barony of Aneala in/near Perth. I am deeply deeply honored. Urtatim (that's oor-tah-TEEM) >Begin forwarded message: > >> From: Jenny Andersen >> Subject: [Lochac] Stronger Kingdom Fund >> Date: September 30, 2014 at 12:26:58 AM CDT >> To: "lochac at lochac.sca.org" >> Reply-To: "The Shambles: the SCA Lochac mailing list" >> >> Hi all, >> all the money for the stronger kingdom fund for this year has been allocated, but if you're thinking of an event for next year and would like to bring an expert/s to your group or have an idea for something that you think would be of benefit to the kingdom, then please put together an application ($500 is the limit) and send it to myself (exchequer at lochac.sca.org) or Caristiona (seneschal at lochac.org.au) and we'll put it before the council of the purse for consideration. >> >> This year the money has gone towards bringing Master Ruslan to Festival, bringing the Known World tapestry and its creator out here for the 50th anniversary) and bringing Urtatim (a middle eastern expert) out to next year's Festival and then to Aneala. >> >> And there's also the Laurel Freedom bus for consideration as well. >> >> Medb ingen Iasachta >> Lochac Exchequer From t.d.decker at att.net Tue Sep 30 14:13:12 2014 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 16:13:12 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cowpeas (was: seljuk-era rice dish) In-Reply-To: <642d8fdb.1206e7.148c83a9483.Webtop.57@optimum.net> References: <642d8fdb.1206e7.148c83a9483.Webtop.57@optimum.net> Message-ID: Please observe that the paragraph I wrote is about linguistics and common names. "Cowpea" is in quotes as a term of usage and not as the object itself. My most current knowledge dates the term of usage to the late 18th Century. Bear -----Original Message----- Cowpeas are out of period?!? Since when? Some cursory research indicates that they were cultivated in the eastern Mediterranean as far back as 2300 BCE. See: Perrino, P., Laghetti, G., Spagnoletti Zeuli, P. L. & Monti, L.M. (1993) Diversification of cowpea in the Mediterranean and other centres of cultivation. Genetic resources and crop evolution, 40, 121-132. DOI:10.1007/BF00051116 -- Galefridus > Each of these names is a common name and meant to provide linguistic > differentiation as opposed to salability. Each of the peas noted has at > least three common names in English just to add to the confusion. BTW, > "cowpea" is out of period. > > Bear From galefridus at optimum.net Tue Sep 30 19:39:20 2014 From: galefridus at optimum.net (Galefridus Peregrinus) Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 22:39:20 -0400 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Cowpeas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <02F3EDCE-C0E5-43B3-82F1-01BB18B95A5C@optimum.net> Ah. My apologies for having misread your posting. For some reason, I totally missed the significance of the quotes. Circling back to the original question, I note that peas (Pisum sativum) are absent not only from the Taqwim al-Sihhah in the original Arabic, but also from pretty much all of the Latin Tacuinum Sanitatis versions, at least as far as I have been able to research tonight. > Please observe that the paragraph I wrote is about linguistics and common names. "Cowpea"is in quotes as a term of usage and not as the object itself. My most current knowledge dates the term of usage to the late 18th Century. -- Galefridus