[Sca-cooks] Pretzels

[Rebecca Friedman]

You're right, thank you. I remember reading it as simnel, because it comes
up on ciambella too... that was silly of me.

And it could be a double diminutive, or ciambella could be coming from the
adjective bella (beautiful) or some other form - -ella is a diminutive, but
occasionally you get words with it that just have those sounds without that
meaning.

Note that a bracciatello is a *large *ciambella.

I would not assume that "braccietto" and "bracciello" are the same; while
Florio *does *list "bracciello" as the same as "bracciatello" (and
"braccietto" is a bracer) the use of a different diminutive often indicates
a different meaning. For example, if I wanted to say "little book" I could
not use libretto; I'd have to find a different diminutive. And if I heard
"librino" or "librello" (I never have yet), I would immediately assume they
were a diminutive of book but had nothing to do with the opera.

I unfortunately can't offer much in terms of fat or thin - the Italian
description of ciambella is "in forma d'anello" (in the form of a ring),
which is pretty generic. (If it helps, that dictionary gives "spira" as the
Latin translation for "ciambella" - I don't know how reliable its Latin
translations generally are, I haven't used them much. And that's the 3rd
edition, in 1691; the 1612 edition doesn't have a Latin translation for
ciambella. Still, if anyone knows a cookbook in Latin with a recipe by that
name...)

And I'm glad if I can be helpful, it's fun!

Rebecca

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 8:46 PM, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:

> I thought the diminutive was being used and it's nice to know I was
> correct. The warning about the change in meaning is useful.
>
> As your Father has pointed out a brazzatella is four ounces so it is
> essentially the weight of a medium size roll or bun.  The shape is more
> difficult to pin down.  I'm certain it is a ring bread.  The question in my
> mind is it a fat or a skinny ring.  A speculative case can be made for a
> thin ring can be made if brazzatella translates to bracer which is defined
> at this time as a cincture, a cord wrapped around the wrist.
>
> You have made an error in reading Florio's definition of bracciatello.
> The word you read as "funnel" is "simnel."  It is a type of (enriched)
> bread made from extremely fine flour.  The weight of a farthing loaf was
> set as 2s. less than the weight of a farthing wastel in the Assize of Bread
> and Beer.
>
> While I haven't encountered any descriptions of a ciambella, the size and
> shape of a ciambella is likely to be a roll of about four ounces, but a
> number of shapes are possible.  Modernly, ciambella is a doughnut.  At the
> time, it translated to cracknel or simnel.  Simnels began as butter and egg
> enriched bread, usually shaped as rolls or loaves and by the late 16th
> Century were probably being filled with marzipan.  They went from that to
> an enriched fruit bread with two layers of marzipan sitting in a pastry
> shell about 8 inches in diameter (although the size of the later simnels
> was more a function of the baker and the enforcement of the Assize than any
> ideal form).  Simnels are boiled then baked.  The ones with the pastry
> shell are boiled in a pudding cloth.
>
> Cracknels are a hard, brittle cake or biscuit.  The word appears to come
> into English from the Middle Dutch, "crakelinc."  Modernly, as far as I can
> determine, "krakeling" refers to crisp pretzels, figure eights and ring
> breads.  The modern recipes I've seen don't boil before baking.  I'm
> wondering if there might not be a  early 17th Century recipe in Koge Bog.
>
> Just as a fun aside, ciambellette (a double diminutive?) is defined as
> wafers or thin cakes.
>
> Thank you for your consideration of the linguistic issues.  Every little
> bit helps.
>
> Bear
>
>
>
> Yes, now that you mention it. "-ello/a/i/e" is a diminutive. In case you're
> curious, Bracciata is given as an armful or an embracing, which is only so
> useful. The italian/italian dictionary gives it as armful as well. Brazzata
> doesn't seem to exist.
>
> (If you mean in the text as a whole, I'd have to recheck it, I don't have
> the Italian right here, but if you do the standard ones are -ino, -ello,
> and -etto. Normal warning for diminutives, they tend to change the meaning
> - a libretto is literally a little book, but the word has developed a
> specific meaning of its own. Do Not Try This At Home, etc. etc.)
>
> I don't know if there are any descriptions of ciambella, but if there were
> you might be able to estimate the size of the brazzatelle from that?
>
> Rebecca
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 6:27 AM, Terry Decker <t.d.decker at att.net> wrote:
>
> I have no problem with your translation, merely irritation at having an
>> incomplete translation in my possession, which I hadn't compared to the
>> original text.  This is Early Modern Italian prior to standardization, so
>> spelling shifts and other oddities are to be expected.  A question you may
>> be able to answer, are we looking at diminutives in this text?
>>
>> From a couple other quotes about how brazzatella were served, I would say
>> they are a simple ring bread, while the "wreathed bread" they were served
>> with is likely a ring braid.  What the descriptions don't provide is an
>> idea of actual size and dimensions.
>>
>> Bear
>>
>>
>>
>> "And make them rise with great -" diligence or care, I would make that.
>> And
>> more precisely, I think they are rings, not pretzels - bagels precisely I
>> can't speak to, but if you're curious about the linguistic argument...
>>
>> ... "bracciatello" is in Florio's 1611 dictionary as "A kind of roule or
>> bisket bread, we call them round funnels". (Poking around on my other
>> early
>> dictionary, I get "bracciatello" described as a "kind of large ciambella"
>> and a "ciambella" as "the same dough [as berlingozzo] made in the form of
>> a
>> ring" which seems pretty clear. Also, the dough is described as "flour
>> mixed with eggs".) Mind, brazzatella --> bracciatello is still a shift.
>> -zz- to -cci- is a change that happens very often, maybe even on a
>> within-the-same-manuscript basis, but while -a to -o sometimes happens it
>> is not nearly that common. So I don't guarantee they're the same, but
>> they're very close, bracciatello is definitely an egg bread made in the
>> shape of a ring, and I could not find the word brazzatella at all in the
>> dictionary. So for whatever it's worth, there's my linguistic grounds!
>>
>> Becca
>>
>
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