From nancy_kiel at hotmail.com Sat Dec 1 07:01:40 2018 From: nancy_kiel at hotmail.com (Nancy) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 15:01:40 +0000 Subject: [Sca-cooks] A website Message-ID: that I happened upon. I don't know if it has anything new, but the more the merrier. https://oakden.co.uk/king-arthurs-christmastide-feast/2/ King Arthur's Christmas-tide Feast - Page 2 of 2 - OAKDEN Spiced-plums poached in brandy is a really simple fruit preserve to make, and once made these jars can last for many months preserved. Bottling fruit like this, in a brandy syrup has always been a great way to preserve the flavours and fruits of autumn, and to provide a store of instant desserts during the ? oakden.co.uk From t.d.decker at att.net Sat Dec 1 10:36:24 2018 From: t.d.decker at att.net (Terry Decker) Date: Sat, 1 Dec 2018 12:36:24 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] A website In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <721B7F92EA134FD4A5A45ACABFE3DBB2@Vishnu> Nice site with some good references. Not much new for an old hands but there are some interesting more modern recipes also on the site. Other than the historical incongruity of naming the site after a Roman-Celtic ruler and then referencing Norman English sources for the food (I'll grant them the fantasy per Mallory), I spot two immediate historical errors. In the recipe below, the use of brandy which first puts in an appearance in early to mid 14th Century as a medicine and is not much used even as a drink until some time in the 15th Century. The second is the idea that trenchers were made from manchet, when they would actually be made of wastel, a second rank coarse bread. Good find. I may try the recipe below with a sweet red cooked to syrup. Bear -----Original Message----- From: Nancy that I happened upon. I don't know if it has anything new, but the more the merrier. https://oakden.co.uk/king-arthurs-christmastide-feast/2/ King Arthur's Christmas-tide Feast - Page 2 of 2 - OAKDEN Spiced-plums poached in brandy is a really simple fruit preserve to make, and once made these jars can last for many months preserved. Bottling fruit like this, in a brandy syrup has always been a great way to preserve the flavours and fruits of autumn, and to provide a store of instant desserts during the ??? oakden.co.uk From guillaumedep at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 16:58:52 2018 From: guillaumedep at gmail.com (Sam Wallace) Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 19:58:52 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Nuskha-e-Shajahani In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Nuskha-e-Shajahani - Pulaos from the Royals Kitchen of Shah Jahan Salma Husain, trans. The original comes from a time a bit after the SCA's period of interest and from what is today modern India. This modern rendition contains only the pulao recipes from the original. Further, they have been rendered in a modern format, though they retain many of the original cookery terms and measurements. There is a glossary toward the beginning of the work giving explanations of each, though the section on measurements is inconsistent. Having said that, the explanation of cooking techniques was well done. Unfortunately, the original text is not given, neither in transcription or translation. I would very much like to have a translation of the whole work, but this at least provides some access to it. My overall impression of the wok is that it could have used some good editing. Besides the issue with the measurements, there were things like the names of similar recipes being given in the form of "Recipe Name ~1" followed by "Recipe Name-II". This is very much a specialist book with a very definite focus. I recommend it for those who are interested in Mughal or historical Indian cooking and for those who are really into rice dishes. From stefanlirous at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 22:06:31 2018 From: stefanlirous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 00:06:31 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Stefan's Florilegium article for December 2018 Message-ID: Greetings to the Gentlefolk of the SCA, Here is a copy of my Florilegium article for December 2018, detailing what is new in the Florilegium this month. I am always looking for good articles for the Florilegium. If you have researched something in our period or you practice a little known art or craft, writing an article is an excellent way to introduce others to the work you've done. I'm especially interested in academic papers written for A&S contests because, unfortunately, few have time at such an event to read them. Even the judges. Getting them published in the Florilegium lets your hard word benefit the entire Known World. Word format is the easiest for me to handle, but others are possible. I am in the process of reorganizing the Florilegium website using WordPress. Hopefully this will make it easier for others to help, and perhaps take it over when I'm unable to. If you know WordPress and would like to help, or even just be willing to test run this new version, please email me. Thanks, Stefan ======== A Blending of the Past and Present Over the past twenty-eight years in an ongoing effort, I have been collecting bits of useful information from various newsgroups, mail lists, facebook groups, and articles whose authors have given me permission to publish. In order to make this information available to others, I have placed this information in a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. The Florilegium is on the web at: http://www.florilegium.org I am always interested in new articles. If you have written an article that would be of interest to others in the SCA, please send it to me for possible inclusion in the Florilegium. A&S documentation and class handouts will also often work well. I am especially interested in research papers submitted as A&S entries. If you see someone's A&S documentation or perhaps an article in a local newsletter that you think deserves a wider audience, please let me know. I won't publish anything without the author's permission, but many authors are too reserved to send me their articles on their own. THLord Stefan li Rous Ansteorra stefan at florilegium.org Here are the new files for this month: In the ACCESSORIES section: Ov-Glas-Beads-art "An Overview of Glass Beads" by Master Mellitus of Rouncivale. http://www.florilegium.org/files/ACCESS/Ov-Glas-Beads-art.html In the BEVERAGES section: Ipocras-3ways-art "Ipocras - 3 ways, from 'The Booke of Carving and Sewing' (1613)" by Baroness Lucia de Enzinas. http://www.florilegium.org/files/BEVERAGES/Ipocras-3ways-art.html In the CLOTHING section: clthg-brushes-msg Use of clothing brushes in period to clean clothes rather than washing. http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/clthg-brushes-msg.html In the COMBAT section: Shieldw-Techn-art "Basic Shieldwall Techniques" by Master Colyne Stewart. http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMBAT/Shieldw-Techn-art.html In the ENTERTAINMENT section: Som-Card-Gmes-art "Period Playing Cards and a few Selected Games" by Maestra Giata Magdalena Alberti. http://www.florilegium.org/files/ENTERTAINMENT/Som-Card-Gmes-art.htmlIn the FOOD section: White-Dish-art "The White Dish of Europe" by Lady Eleanor of Forth Castle. (Blancmange). http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/White-Dish-art.htmlIn the FOOD-BREADS section: Bizcochos-art "Bizcochos - Renaissance Spanish Biscotti" by Mistress Kiriel du Papillon (OL, OP). http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BREADS/Bizcochos-art.html In the FOOD-MANUSCRIPTS section: L-de-Coquina-art "Il Liber de Coquina - An Anonom" by The Right Noble Upper Crust, Barony of Gyldenholt, Kingdom of Caid. Original recipes and their redactions of a 14C Naples cookbook. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MANUSCRIPTS/L-de-Coquina-art.html In the FOOD-MEATS section: Turkey-Pie-art "Turkey Pie" by by Mistress Leoba of Lecelade. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/Turkey-Pie-art.html In the FOOD-SNACKS section: Gamblng-Snaks-art "Medieval 'Snacks' for an Informal Evening of Drinking and Gambling" by Conal O'hAirt, OL. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SNACKS/Gamblng-Snaks-art.html medieval-dips-msg Medieval dips. Appetizers. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SNACKS/medieval-dips-msg.html In PERSONAL CARE section: Ital-Lip-Balms-art "16th Century Italian Lip Balms" by THL Astridr Vigaskegg. http://www.florilegium.org/files/PERSONAL/Ital-Lip-Balms-art.html Updated files: bread-msg Medieval breads and grains. buckwheat-msg Buckwheat use in period. Recipes. camelne-sauce-msg Sauces w. cinnamon as a major component. caviar-msg Medieval caviar and fish eggs. Recipes. comfits-msg Period candied spices and seeds. Recipes. cotehardies-msg Making 13th century cotehardies. eggs-stuffed-msg Period stuffed eggs dishes. Recipes. eggplant-msg Period eggplant (aubergine). Recipes. fd-Spain-msg Food of medieval Spain. Cookbooks. fd-Wales-msg Food of medieval Wales. Recipes. nuts-msg Nuts, acorns, nut flours in medieval foods. ---- Copyright 2018, Mark S. Harris. Permission to reprint in SCA-related publications is hereby granted if the file descriptions are left unchanged. Removing any of the updated files listed in order to fit the article into limited publication space is allowed. The article introduction may also be edited, provided the web address and contact info are retained. -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From stefanlirous at gmail.com Sat Dec 15 22:08:21 2018 From: stefanlirous at gmail.com (Stefan li Rous) Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2018 00:08:21 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Stefan's Florilegium article for December 2018 Message-ID: Greetings to the Gentlefolk of the SCA, Here is a copy of my Florilegium article for December 2018, detailing what is new in the Florilegium this month. I am always looking for good articles for the Florilegium. If you have researched something in our period or you practice a little known art or craft, writing an article is an excellent way to introduce others to the work you've done. I'm especially interested in academic papers written for A&S contests because, unfortunately, few have time at such an event to read them. Even the judges. Getting them published in the Florilegium lets your hard word benefit the entire Known World. Word format is the easiest for me to handle, but others are possible. I am in the process of reorganizing the Florilegium website using WordPress. Hopefully this will make it easier for others to help, and perhaps take it over when I'm unable to. If you know WordPress and would like to help, or even just be willing to test run this new version, please email me. Thanks, Stefan ======== A Blending of the Past and Present Over the past twenty-eight years in an ongoing effort, I have been collecting bits of useful information from various newsgroups, mail lists, facebook groups, and articles whose authors have given me permission to publish. In order to make this information available to others, I have placed this information in a collection of files called Stefan's Florilegium. The Florilegium is on the web at: http://www.florilegium.org I am always interested in new articles. If you have written an article that would be of interest to others in the SCA, please send it to me for possible inclusion in the Florilegium. A&S documentation and class handouts will also often work well. I am especially interested in research papers submitted as A&S entries. If you see someone's A&S documentation or perhaps an article in a local newsletter that you think deserves a wider audience, please let me know. I won't publish anything without the author's permission, but many authors are too reserved to send me their articles on their own. THLord Stefan li Rous Ansteorra stefan at florilegium.org Here are the new files for this month: In the ACCESSORIES section: Ov-Glas-Beads-art "An Overview of Glass Beads" by Master Mellitus of Rouncivale. http://www.florilegium.org/files/ACCESS/Ov-Glas-Beads-art.html In the BEVERAGES section: Ipocras-3ways-art "Ipocras - 3 ways, from 'The Booke of Carving and Sewing' (1613)" by Baroness Lucia de Enzinas. http://www.florilegium.org/files/BEVERAGES/Ipocras-3ways-art.html In the CLOTHING section: clthg-brushes-msg Use of clothing brushes in period to clean clothes rather than washing. http://www.florilegium.org/files/CLOTHING/clthg-brushes-msg.html In the COMBAT section: Shieldw-Techn-art "Basic Shieldwall Techniques" by Master Colyne Stewart. http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMBAT/Shieldw-Techn-art.html In the ENTERTAINMENT section: Som-Card-Gmes-art "Period Playing Cards and a few Selected Games" by Maestra Giata Magdalena Alberti. http://www.florilegium.org/files/ENTERTAINMENT/Som-Card-Gmes-art.htmlIn the FOOD section: White-Dish-art "The White Dish of Europe" by Lady Eleanor of Forth Castle. (Blancmange). http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD/White-Dish-art.htmlIn the FOOD-BREADS section: Bizcochos-art "Bizcochos - Renaissance Spanish Biscotti" by Mistress Kiriel du Papillon (OL, OP). http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-BREADS/Bizcochos-art.html In the FOOD-MANUSCRIPTS section: L-de-Coquina-art "Il Liber de Coquina - An Anonom" by The Right Noble Upper Crust, Barony of Gyldenholt, Kingdom of Caid. Original recipes and their redactions of a 14C Naples cookbook. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MANUSCRIPTS/L-de-Coquina-art.html In the FOOD-MEATS section: Turkey-Pie-art "Turkey Pie" by by Mistress Leoba of Lecelade. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-MEATS/Turkey-Pie-art.html In the FOOD-SNACKS section: Gamblng-Snaks-art "Medieval 'Snacks' for an Informal Evening of Drinking and Gambling" by Conal O'hAirt, OL. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SNACKS/Gamblng-Snaks-art.html medieval-dips-msg Medieval dips. Appetizers. http://www.florilegium.org/files/FOOD-SNACKS/medieval-dips-msg.html In PERSONAL CARE section: Ital-Lip-Balms-art "16th Century Italian Lip Balms" by THL Astridr Vigaskegg. http://www.florilegium.org/files/PERSONAL/Ital-Lip-Balms-art.html Updated files: bread-msg Medieval breads and grains. buckwheat-msg Buckwheat use in period. Recipes. camelne-sauce-msg Sauces w. cinnamon as a major component. caviar-msg Medieval caviar and fish eggs. Recipes. comfits-msg Period candied spices and seeds. Recipes. cotehardies-msg Making 13th century cotehardies. eggs-stuffed-msg Period stuffed eggs dishes. Recipes. eggplant-msg Period eggplant (aubergine). Recipes. fd-Spain-msg Food of medieval Spain. Cookbooks. fd-Wales-msg Food of medieval Wales. Recipes. nuts-msg Nuts, acorns, nut flours in medieval foods. ---- Copyright 2018, Mark S. Harris. Permission to reprint in SCA-related publications is hereby granted if the file descriptions are left unchanged. Removing any of the updated files listed in order to fit the article into limited publication space is allowed. The article introduction may also be edited, provided the web address and contact info are retained. -------- THLord Stefan li Rous Barony of Bryn Gwlad Kingdom of Ansteorra Mark S. Harris Austin, Texas StefanliRous at gmail.com http://www.linkedin.com/in/marksharris **** See Stefan's Florilegium files at: http://www.florilegium.org **** From alexbclark8 at gmail.com Mon Dec 17 19:52:06 2018 From: alexbclark8 at gmail.com (Alexander Clark) Date: Mon, 17 Dec 2018 22:52:06 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Browet of Almayne in Utilis Coquinario Message-ID: I've suspected for years that recipe 22 in Curye on Inglysch part III, "Utilis Coquinario" (UC) was really two recipes. Now I've found both of them in other sources. The first recipe appears in John Crophill's Commonplace Book (MS Harleian 1735) as the second recipe, and appears to be closely related to recipes in the Liber Cure Cocorum (recipe 14 in Morris's edition) and A Noble Boke of Festes Ryalle and Cokery (recipe 219). This recipe is the bruet of Almayne. The second recipe turns up as number 28 in MS Arundel 334, AKA Ancient Cookery (sometimes misnumbered 344). Its title is "Rose to potage." In comparison it tends to read like a loose paraphrase, but little of substance is different except for the addition of canel and maces. These spices tended to be added to various recipes in Arundel 334 compared with earlier versions of the same recipes. And the UC version, which does not clearly indicate that the recipe is supposed to be rosee, allows blood to be substituted for saunders as a coloring. So apparently the first recipe is supposed to end with the word "sugre" (in a phrase exactly matched in Harleian 1735), and the second begins with "roset" for a title. By the way, this recipe for rosee differs from most English recipes by that name in that it contains no parts of roses, but is like some French recipes in that it is colored pink. -- Henry of Maldon/Alex Clark From guillaumedep at gmail.com Tue Dec 18 14:28:54 2018 From: guillaumedep at gmail.com (Sam Wallace) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 17:28:54 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] 15h Century Farmhouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: All, I was following up some information on the history of rice when I came across a reference to Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, having an experimental farm built called Sforzesca. That of itself is interesting, but this is one of the results returned when I started doing web searches: https://www.investinitalyrealestate.com/en/property/vigevano-pavia-villafarmhouse-sforzesca/ It seems that it's available as an investment property. Thanks, Guillaume From johnnae at mac.com Tue Dec 18 18:52:28 2018 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2018 21:52:28 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Browet of Almayne in Utilis Coquinario Message-ID: <6F9B1C9F-A087-47B1-A7F1-A22D471E2952@mac.com> Excuse the delay in my response. Not sure if this will help or hinder the process. When we did the Concordance of English Recipes Thirteenth through Fifteen Centuries, we came up with 15 variations of the Brewet of Almayne recipes. So there are a number of these recipes scattered throughout the medieval texts. Does it matter that MS BL Sloane 468 or Utilis Coquinario" (UC) is dated 1395, and the other variations you mention seem to be later. LCC is dated 1460 Ar 334 is dated 1425 NBC is dated 1475 John Crophill's Commonplace Book (MS Harleian 1735) British Library dates as 2nd or 3rd quarter of the 15th century or 1425-1475. Johnna From tdoughter23 at gmail.com Wed Dec 19 06:31:18 2018 From: tdoughter23 at gmail.com (Matthew Maddoux) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 08:31:18 -0600 Subject: [Sca-cooks] 15h Century Farmhouse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, then... Adding it to my Christmas List of things I won't get. On Tue, Dec 18, 2018 at 4:29 PM Sam Wallace wrote: > All, > > I was following up some information on the history of rice when I came > across a reference to Ludovico Sforza, Duke of Milan, having an > experimental farm built called Sforzesca. That of itself is interesting, > but this is one of the results returned when I started doing web searches: > > > https://www.investinitalyrealestate.com/en/property/vigevano-pavia-villafarmhouse-sforzesca/ > > It seems that it's available as an investment property. > > Thanks, > > Guillaume > _______________________________________________ > Sca-cooks mailing list > Sca-cooks at lists.ansteorra.org > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/sca-cooks-ansteorra.org > -- OOC: Matthew Maddoux US2009023568 From lilinah at earthlink.net Wed Dec 19 21:50:15 2018 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 19 Dec 2018 21:50:15 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Nuskha-e-Shajahani Message-ID: <1465410471.85.1545285015857@wamui-kitty.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Greetings: I've posted about this book here before - at least 10 years ago, tho, and maybe longer, so not very recently. It is from the 2nd quarter of the 17th c. For anyone studying SCA-period Persian cuisine, this is a useful to compare the rice pilaos of Shah Jahan with those from 1594 of chef to Safavid Shah Abbas I, published as "Dining at the Safavid Court: 16th Century Royal Persian Recipes" by M. R. Ghanoonparvar, Mazda Pub. (2017). "the original text is not given, neither in transcription" - the original text was written in Persian. We rarely get the original text of Arabic-language recipes and i rarely hear people asking for them. An exception is Perry's most recent work, which *does* have the Arabic on pages facing the English translation. I suspect even fewer of us can read late 16th/early 17th c. Farsi. When i first received it, i thought the recipes had been modernized. Then i got onto some Indian message boards where the book was being discussed. And it appeared that the recipes had not been extensively modernized, since there were so many comments about not understanding the measurements given and some of the procedures. I, too, wish the whole cookbook was translated. Urtatim al-Qurtubiyya -----Original Message----- > Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2018 19:58:52 -0500 > From: Sam Wallace > > Nuskha-e-Shajahani - Pulaos from the Royals Kitchen of Shah Jahan > Salma Husain, trans. > > The original comes from a time a bit after the SCA's period of interest and > from what is today modern India. This modern rendition contains only the > pulao recipes from the original. Further, they have been rendered in a > modern format, though they retain many of the original cookery terms and > measurements. There is a glossary toward the beginning of the work giving > explanations of each, though the section on measurements is inconsistent. > Having said that, the explanation of cooking techniques was well done. > Unfortunately, the original text is not given, neither in transcription or > translation. I would very much like to have a translation of the whole > work, but this at least provides some access to it. My overall impression > of the wok is that it could have used some good editing. Besides the issue > with the measurements, there were things like the names of similar recipes > being given in the form of "Recipe Name ~1" followed by "Recipe Name-II". > > This is very much a specialist book with a very definite focus. I recommend > it for those who are interested in Mughal or historical Indian cooking and > for those who are really into rice dishes. From guillaumedep at gmail.com Thu Dec 20 15:28:20 2018 From: guillaumedep at gmail.com (Sam Wallace) Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:28:20 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Nuskha-e-Shajahani In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, The comment concerning the translation and transcription is simply an observation. I prefer to have at least a transcription facing the translated text and have seen this as a standard in many other publications. I look at Perry's work as following quite a high standard and very much appreciate what he brings to the table (sorry!). This publication has a lot of issues that should have been solved during the editing process. While the original measures might have been left, the format is certainly modern. I believe some of the ingredients have been listed as what is typically used today versus what was used in the period of the original text (e.g. pumpkin vs. ash gourd). My overall impression is that the author wanted to make a cookbook that the general population would be interested in rather than target the historical cooking community. To follow up the issue of the units of measure, the modern equivalents given in the book are not consistent. In one case, the UOM given in the glossary isn't even used anywhere in the text. I did some digging so that I would have at least a starting point and found the following Weight seer 637.74 gram pao 159.44 gram dam 20 gram tank 5 gram masha 1.5 gram damri 1 gram Measurements of volume were, from what I found in a couple of different resources, just the amount of volume that the given weight of a particular liquid would take up. It is not a similar question to liquid vs solid ounces for example. I hope this is useful. Guillaume Greetings: > > I've posted about this book here before - at least 10 years ago, tho, and > maybe longer, so not very recently. It is from the 2nd quarter of the 17th > c. For anyone studying SCA-period Persian cuisine, this is a useful to > compare the rice pilaos of Shah Jahan with those from 1594 of chef to > Safavid Shah Abbas I, published as "Dining at the Safavid Court: 16th > Century Royal Persian Recipes" by M. R. Ghanoonparvar, Mazda Pub. (2017). > > "the original text is not given, neither in transcription" - the original > text was written in Persian. We rarely get the original text of > Arabic-language recipes and i rarely hear people asking for them. An > exception is Perry's most recent work, which *does* have the Arabic on > pages facing the English translation. I suspect even fewer of us can read > late 16th/early 17th c. Farsi. > > When i first received it, i thought the recipes had been modernized. Then > i got onto some Indian message boards where the book was being discussed. > And it appeared that the recipes had not been extensively modernized, since > there were so many comments about not understanding the measurements given > and some of the procedures. > > I, too, wish the whole cookbook was translated. > > Urtatim al-Qurtubiyya > From alexbclark8 at gmail.com Fri Dec 21 09:33:43 2018 From: alexbclark8 at gmail.com (Alexander Clark) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:33:43 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Browet of Almayne in Utilis Coquinario Message-ID: On Tue, 18 Dec 2018 21:52:28 -0500, Johnna Holloway wrote: Excuse the delay in my response. Not sure if this will help or hinder the > process. > > When we did the Concordance of English Recipes Thirteenth through Fifteen > Centuries, we > came up with 15 variations of the Brewet of Almayne recipes. > > So there are a number of these recipes scattered throughout the medieval > texts. > > Does it matter that MS BL Sloane 468 or Utilis Coquinario" (UC) is dated > 1395, and the > > other variations you mention seem to be later. > > LCC is dated 1460 > > Ar 334 is dated 1425 > > NBC is dated 1475 > > John Crophill's Commonplace Book (MS Harleian 1735) > > British Library dates as 2nd or 3rd quarter of the 15th century or > 1425-1475. > The way it looks to me, the UC recipe ought to be a copy, which makes the original older. So all the others, being newer than UC, must be newer than the original. The time scale seems (to me) credible for a single family of versions. BTW I suspect that both of the Ar 334 recipes are related to each other. And speaking of NBC, what should I be looking up for a recent edition thereof? -- Henry/Alex From lilinah at earthlink.net Fri Dec 21 15:42:53 2018 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 15:42:53 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Nuskha-e-Shajahani Message-ID: <97245693.9439.1545435773391@wamui-kitty.atl.sa.earthlink.net> -----Original Message----- >Date: Thu, 20 Dec 2018 18:28:20 -0500 >From: Sam Wallace > >The comment concerning the translation and transcription is simply an >observation. I prefer to have at least a transcription facing the >translated text and have seen this as a standard in many other >publications. I look at Perry's work as following quite a high standard and >very much appreciate what he brings to the table (sorry!). There is only one translation by Charles Perry that keeps a version in Arabic on the facing page. None of the others of his that have been published do so. So that one is an exception. >This publication >has a lot of issues that should have been solved during the editing >process. While the original measures might have been left, the format is >certainly modern. I believe some of the ingredients have been listed as >what is typically used today versus what was used in the period of the >original text (e.g. pumpkin vs. ash gourd). My overall impression is that >the author wanted to make a cookbook that the general population would be >interested in rather than target the historical cooking community. Based on reading what actual Indians posted to the internet after reading this book, it very much did not suit the general population. They were quite mystified by it - by the weights and measures and by the procedures for making the dishes. As for the format, i don't know what the original was like. However, the Ain-i Akbari recipes include lists of ingredients and quantities (altho not the procedures for making them!). So it is possible that these recipes did as well, and perhaps the only thing the translator did was put each on a separate line. For example, this recipe from the Ain-i Akbari Qutab or Sanbusa Qutab, which the people of Hind call sanbusa: This is made in several ways. 10 s. meat; 4 s. fine flour; 2 s. ghee; 1 s. onions; 1/4 s. fresh ginger; 1/2 s. salt; 2 d. pepper and coriander seed; cardamons, cumin seed, cloves, 1 d. of each; 1/4 s. of summaq. This can be cooked in twenty different ways, and gives four full dishes. Or, without changing the contents of the recipe, only adding line breaks: Qutab, which the people of Hind call sanbusa: This is made in several ways. 10 s. meat 4 s. fine flour 2 s. ghee 1 s. onions 1/4 s. fresh ginger 1/2 s. salt 2 d. pepper and coriander seed cardamons, cumin seed, cloves, 1 d. of each 1/4 s. of summaq This can be cooked in twenty different ways, and gives four full dishes. --end recipe -- The recipes in the Nuskha-e Shajahani could very will have had the ingredients enumerated. We won't know unless the manuscript is given a proper translation, but i would not judge the recipes as modernized until then. >To follow up the issue of the units of measure, the modern equivalents >given in the book are not consistent. In one case, the UOM given in the >glossary isn't even used anywhere in the text. I did some digging so that I >would have at least a starting point and found the following > >Weight > >seer 637.74 gram >pao 159.44 gram >dam 20 gram >tank 5 gram >masha 1.5 gram >damri 1 gram > >Measurements of volume were, from what I found in a couple of different >resources, just the amount of volume that the given weight of a particular >liquid would take up. It is not a similar question to liquid vs solid >ounces for example. Yes, i have a file of those measurements and several others Commodity weight: 1 Ser = 637.74 grams = 1.41 lb (2.55 grams less than 1.5 lb) Commodity Spice weight: 1 Dam = 20 grams = .71 oz (1 gram less than 3/4 oz) The ''Dam'' was a copper coin used as a weight as well as currency. Gold and Expensive Spice weight: 1 Misqal = 6.22 grams = .22 oz (.85 gram less than 1/4 oz) I continue to find Salma Husain?s limited translation of the Nuskha-e-Shajahani valuable and frustrating - valuable for giving us recipes from the time of Shah Jahan and frustrating for only giving us *some* of the recipes from this manuscript. Husain also translated the 16th century Alwan-e-Nemat, a royal cookbook for Prince Salim, who was born August 1569, but did not ascend to the Mughal throne as Shah Jajangir until 1605. It apparently has over 374 recipes. The published version of Husain's translation has only about 100 of them. However i have been unable to find much information about it, and i would certainly love to see it! Urtatim al-Qurtubiyya From johnnae at mac.com Fri Dec 21 21:04:30 2018 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:04:30 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Nuskha-e-Shajahani In-Reply-To: <97245693.9439.1545435773391@wamui-kitty.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <97245693.9439.1545435773391@wamui-kitty.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <98420F0D-A9EE-454E-8138-5CF3F472D4A5@mac.com> For those general readers left wondering that book is The Emperors Table: The Art of Mughal Cuisine. 2009. Article on the author here: https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/durbar-entrees/213443 They are very wrong of course when they date the work to the 16th century and then say?"The Alwan-e-Nemat (Colours of the Riches) is possibly the first book in the world to be devoted entirely to recipes and methods of processing and serving food?? Gee, I think we can name more than a few that are earlier. Johnna > > I continue to find Salma Husain?s limited translation of the Nuskha-e-Shajahani valuable and frustrating - valuable for giving us recipes from the time of Shah Jahan and frustrating for only giving us *some* of the recipes from this manuscript. > > Husain also translated the 16th century Alwan-e-Nemat, a royal cookbook for Prince Salim, who was born August 1569, but did not ascend to the Mughal throne as Shah Jajangir until 1605. It apparently has over 374 recipes. The published version of Husain's translation has only about 100 of them. However i have been unable to find much information about it, and i would certainly love to see it! > > Urtatim al-Qurtubiyya > _____________________ From johnnae at mac.com Fri Dec 21 21:44:00 2018 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:44:00 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] NBC Message-ID: <7ED48C9F-462E-44DD-8048-69A049BEE49A@mac.com> Sca Cooks has been problematic about me posting the NBC info. The fifteenth century HOLKHAM MANUSCRIPT 674 is related in a complicated fashion to the Pynson printed volume of 1500. It was published as: Napier, Robina. A Noble boke off cookry ffor a prynce houssolde? London, 1882. Napier?s transcribed edition is neither complete nor able to be 100% trusted. The Google eBook is online. Or see Daniel Myers? transcription at: http://www.medievalcookery.com/notes/napier.txt The new Pynson has still not been published. Johnna From lilinah at earthlink.net Sat Dec 22 18:16:52 2018 From: lilinah at earthlink.net (lilinah at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 22 Dec 2018 18:16:52 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [Sca-cooks] Nuskha-e-Shajahani Message-ID: <1810116540.6777.1545531412913@wamui-napoleon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The Emperors Table: The Art of Mughal Cuisine by Salma Husain is another of those frustrating books. It's not a translation of any particular cookbook Each chapter is more or less a brief meal using recipes from the time of a particular Mughal shah. I forget (book is home and i'm not) if there's a 16th c. chapter (could be... Ain-i Akbari). So it is of very limited to those strictly interested SCA-period food. But it's a pleasant tease with meals from other centuries, if one is interested in the development/ changes in Mughal cuisine. Urtatim al-Qurtubiyya -----Original Message----- >Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 22:04:30 -0700 >From: Johnna Holloway >For those general readers left wondering that book is >The Emperors Table: The Art of Mughal Cuisine. 2009. > >Article on the author here: > >https://www.outlookindia.com/magazine/story/durbar-entrees/213443 > >They are very wrong of course when they date the work to the 16th century and then say "The Alwan-e-Nemat (Colours of the Riches) is possibly the first book in the world to be devoted entirely to recipes and methods of processing and serving food. > >Gee, I think we can name more than a few that are earlier. > >Johnna From alexbclark8 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 11:42:07 2018 From: alexbclark8 at gmail.com (Alexander Clark) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:42:07 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] NBC Message-ID: So if Napier's transcription is not entirely trustworthy--is that because it's full of "Hokum"? Sorry, couldn't restrain myself. Pun intended. So is there any way to get to see a version that isn't Napier's, short of flipping my wings and flying to England to look at the originals (supposing that I would get permission to look at them, but who would refuse when I'm a winged man who can fly?) And BTW is there any published version of BL MS Sloane 1201? -- Henry/Alex From alexbclark8 at gmail.com Sun Dec 23 12:06:23 2018 From: alexbclark8 at gmail.com (Alexander Clark) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 15:06:23 -0500 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Browet of Almayne in Utilis Coquinario Message-ID: BTW I think I've now found versions of that rosee recipe in LCC (17 in Morris, or 23 in Renfrow) and NBC (200-ish?) and Harleian 1735 (55)--the same MSS that have versions of the UC Browet of Almayne recipe. I don't have the recipe number in NBC because I'm at a computer that isn't near my books. -- Henry/Alex From johnnae at mac.com Sun Dec 23 12:45:58 2018 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 13:45:58 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Browet of Almayne in Utilis Coquinario In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20B37C02-6F32-45D7-9CC5-A5E594C39B06@mac.com> I am away from my library and desktop files, so I can?t list all the versions. Maybe sometime after mid January I can sit down and work up an article on this. Right now I am under deadline for something due 31 December . Johnna > On Dec 23, 2018, at 1:06 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > > BTW I think I've now found versions of that rosee recipe in LCC (17 in > Morris, or 23 in Renfrow) and NBC (200-ish?) and Harleian 1735 (55)--the > same MSS that have versions of the UC Browet of Almayne recipe. > > I don't have the recipe number in NBC because I'm at a computer that isn't > near my books. > > -- > Henry/Alex From johnnae at mac.com Sun Dec 23 12:59:47 2018 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 13:59:47 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] NBC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <303D18FF-8762-4D61-B905-029FC7B303EA@mac.com> OK you are in luck because I managed to find my response on the Napier and Holkham materials from 2009. You will note that I mention I own all three! So yes, you can buy for a price the Pynson, Holkham, and now of course see the Napier via Google Books. I wrote and posted 20 August 2009? As regards the menus, in the original Holkham manuscript the dishes are recorded in a single column. Napier or the publisher back in 1882 includes those as a double column. She continues this through the other feasts. The menu section in the manuscript stretches over 22 or 23 pages. The Napier edition does it in half that space. I did not do a word by word comparison, but Napier seems to be fairly accurate here. (NB: The items here are easy going compared to the later recipes.) In the courses she ends a number with the words "Ung fubtilite". This looks like viiy or viig in the manuscript to me. I am wondering if this isn't a number or shorthand for something else. I'll have to look into this. ----- Constance Hieatt has done several articles that compare Napier, the original manuscript and the printed Pynson volume of 1500. One of those articles is: "Sources of, and Analogues to, the Noble Boke of Cokery" by Constance B. Hieatt /Journal of the Early Book Society for the Study of Manuscripts and Printing History. /Volume 3 (2000) Edited by Martha Driver, Pace University. Another titled "Richard Pynson's Noble Boke of Festes Ryalle and Cokery and its Relationship to Two Analogous Manuscripts" appears in Volume 1, Number 1 of Journal of the Early Book Society for the Study of Manuscripts and Printing History. 1997. Those articles ought to be able to be interlibrary loaned, although you may have loan them in through an academic library. I was able to buy volume 1, number 1 way back when and CBH sent me a gallery proof of the later article. We also mention and include Napier of course in the Concordance of English Recipes. I can actually do the comparisons in house now between Napier, Holkham and Pynson volumes because I own copies of all three. One is on CD, one is on microfilm, and one is the actual book and now that's online, so by running between formats, it's all here. And there will be more in the forthcoming two volume facsimile set of Pynson from 1500, if and when it's ever done. I write and ask the editor every six months or so if they have a date yet for that. (I suspect the cost will be $$$ or in the hundreds for the edition when it is released. Some of these limited edition fine press books are running $500-$600 a volume, so I am sure the Pynson will be or might well be priced accordingly.) Hope this helps, Johnnae > On Dec 23, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > > So if Napier's transcription is not entirely trustworthy--is that because > it's full of "Hokum"? > > Sorry, couldn't restrain myself. Pun intended. > > So is there any way to get to see a version that isn't Napier's, short of > flipping my wings and flying to England to look at the originals (supposing > that I would get permission to look at them, but who would refuse when I'm > a winged man who can fly?) > > And BTW is there any published version of BL MS Sloane 1201? > > -- > Henry/Alex From johnnae at mac.com Sun Dec 23 13:31:33 2018 From: johnnae at mac.com (Johnna Holloway) Date: Sun, 23 Dec 2018 14:31:33 -0700 Subject: [Sca-cooks] Sloane 1201 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8BCA3544-85D7-452B-AED5-09321CE7B58F@mac.com> Answered privately. > On Dec 23, 2018, at 12:42 PM, Alexander Clark wrote: > > > > And BTW is there any published version of BL MS Sloane 1201? > > -- > Henry/Alex