[Scriptoris] commissions??

[lizdenpeters at juno.com]

Good Gentles,

I have been following this thread with interest.  Being relatively new to
this, I have some comments and questions so, when responding, please
don't jump on me too hard!

Nuala

On Tue, 9 Sep 2003 03:56:54 -0700 (PDT) Diane Rudin
<serena1570 at yahoo.com> writes:
> Darius, as Star Signet, wrote:
> > However not every one who wants original scrolls knows who does >
them. > > Likewise many Artist who want to do these projects don't know >
which peers > > and nobles want or need these done. 
Serena      BINGO!  Give the man a Gold Star!  Exactly the cause of the >
backlog!

Nuala     Does anyone know exactly how extensive this backlog is?  Are we
speaking of 50? 100?  1,000?  5,000?  Also, what types are needed? 
Laurel, Pelican, etc.?  And, how many of each?  A short term solution
that (that probably few would be happy with) would be to do basic artwork
(but more complicated stuff than is done for our charters) for some of
these types and customize through calligraphy, details, etc. for each
particular circumstance.  This would help cut down the backlog; however,
the recipients might not be happy with this particular solution.

 
Darius     > > I have no wish to be a clearing house of > > assignments
for this type of work > 
Serena      > Too Bad, So Sad, but that's your job now.  The biggest part
of the 
> job of Star > Signet, and the one that's gone undone for over fifteen
years now.> 

Nuala     I can get a headache just from trying to figure out exactly
what each different type of herald (Okenwald, Star Signet, Sable Scroll,
etc., etc.) is and what their job is.  To Darius, do you (or anyone, for
that matter) know who needs these scrolls and what they are for?  And,
again, how many total?


Darius     > > ...but I do need to know who is willing to do > > it, and
is not overbooked, so if peers and nobles contact me I > _can_ tell > >
them who can do the job for them.> 
Serena      > Please, please, people, volunteer some time to work on
pieces for > those who
> have given so much of their time and energy to the society to earn >
recognition > through the awards structure.  If you can only do part of
the work, > find people > with whom to collaborate.  As for the heraldic
art needed for > achievement > ts, there are many copyright-free
resources available now through > the > internet, and although a great
majority of it is Victorian style > (the use of > which is strongly
discouraged), most of that can be adapted to 
> medieval and > Renaissance styles with a little thought. > 
Darius     > > The question becomes How? > 
Serena      > Hmmm, doing away with ever-more-elaborate prize
commemoratives leaps 
> to mind.   > More on that later.> 

Nuala     Please see what I proposed above.  This would entail designing
motifs from various styles and Books of Hours, Psalters, The Book of
Kells that could be configured in different ways with customized
detailing and calligraphy for each unique commemorative.

Darius     > > I can keep a list of who wants to do scrolls and what
styles they > do however
> > this has a few holes in it.   > >   > > Example: Where I _can_ do
Calig and Painting My preferred art is > drawing so > > I would need a
Calligrapher and a Scrivener to work with me.
> >  > > Fly in the pigment:  Artists are fussy critters. I don't wish to
> arbitrarily > > assign 2 or 3 to work together only to find out they
cant stand > working > > together.  > 
Serena      > Don't assign.  Let people know "hey, Duke Lotsastuff has
just asked > for an
> achievement document.  Serena has whomped up an appropriate text.  >
Any takers?"
>  Then someone will say, "I'd do it, but I only do calligraphy", and >
someone > else jumps in and says, "I'd be happy to do the heraldic art
but > only the > drawing", and another person says, "I'll do the
painting", and > *poof* there's a > team.  >   > Unless everyone is
scared off by the sentence, "Serena has whomped > up an > appropriate
text."  :^)  >   > No one volunteers to work with someone they know they
can't stand > working with.  >  
Darius     > > For a start I will do this. If any one has the interest
and the > time to do > > originals Please send me your name and contact
info as well as > what styles > > you are proficient in working with. I
also recommend sending in an > image of > > your work for the Originals
Gallery on the Scribes Web page so > People may > > see samples of your
work. I will then refer any nobles/peers/etc > who come to > > me to
artists who work in the styles they desire and let them > contact the > >
artist they choose to negotiate whatever terms needed to make > every one
> > happy (I will _not_ negotiate terms of commissions). This will > need
allot of > > refining and will be very chunky to start out (looks like
another > topic of > > discussion for the meeting at crown tourney.)  > 

Nuala     It would be helpful to know who needs what and what style/type
of scroll they want, i.e.,  Count Whatnot would like to have his Pelican
Scroll based on the Visconti Hours, and, if possible, a particular plate
(a color copy would be good) with these details as part of it.


Serena      > Yes, I would very much like to see this discussed, and we
don't need > to wait
> until Crown.  We do need to wait until Crown to take action, but > the
> recommendations should start flying fast and furious.  For my part, > I
believe > that the obstacles are as follows:  >   > (1)  Ansteorrans are
spoiled rotten as far as visual quality of > final product > is
concerned.  In kingdoms where all documents are originals, people >
accept > that calligraphy/drawing/painting will be >
sparse/sloppy/crooked/uneven; what > matters is that it is theirs alone. 
(I'm told they all have  > terrible backlogs > too.)  Our Crowns are,
shall we say, very generous in the awards  > department.   > The ratio of
scribes/illuminators to awards given is not as it is in  > other >
kingdoms.  But most of all, by emphasizing quality painting in our  >
pre-printed  > documents, we have set a level of visual quality that is
difficult > for > less-experienced scribes/illuminators to achieve.  It
is worth  > pointing out
> that we probably spend more time painting a "charter" for the  >
lower-level  > awards than most people in other kingdoms spend doing the
entire > original  > document for their comparable awards.  > 

Nuala     Perhaps a lowering of standards for the looks of basic awards
is in order.  Admittedly, I have not been painting very long but perhaps
a couple of very simple AoAs with only a versal and perhaps some minimal
vine work or something might help as so many of these are given out.   I
have a King's Archer Scroll to finish that will probably take less than 5
hours total.  It is a very nice, but simple design.

Serena      > How much time do you spend painting a single "charter"? 
I've heard > people > quote eight, ten, twelve or more hours.  When I was
still capable of > doing > calligraphy, in four hours I could do a single
calligraphy-only  > Barony in Fief > document of a few hundred words with
a single penwork initial.  I > probably > could have churned out an AoA
in 30 minutes.  All very > authentic--and most very > unappreciated.  >  
> Because what most Ansteorrans want more than original documents are  >
pretty > pictures to hang on their walls.  They want lots of paint, lots
of > color, and > most of all, they want it NOW!  > 

Nuala     Admittedly, I do spend a lot of time on the charters I paint
(approximately 15-20 hours each) but then I only have two speeds, slow
and slower.  I have seen Illuminators paint much better than I ever could
in a third of the time.  I recently finished painting an original scroll
and know I spent 80+ hours on it.  Since I have been learning this art,
the emphasis from everyone I have spoken with is on the quality of the
work and not the quantity.  It is my hope that as I become more
proficient, my speed will increase (from slower to slow!).

Serena      > (2)  Not enough *scribes* (e.g., calligraphers).  We've got
lots of > people who > want to paint, and draw, but there seems to be a
dearth of people > who want to > write.  How do we recruit more people
who want to write?  > 

Nuala     I cannot speak for anyone other than myself in this area.  The
quality of the calligraphy that seems to be "demanded" from the scribes
is very high indeed.  It also appears to me (a rank beginner in this
area) that if one's initial efforts are not exemplary, the criticism is
brutal and little, if any, mentoring is offered.  Admittedly, for the
most part, I have been trying to do this, learning on my own, and am
finding it very difficult to emulate the period hands with anything
resembling acceptable (for scrolls) quality.  I did some mundane
calligraphy about 30 years ago but the period hands are a completely
different deal.

Serena      > (3)  Talent drain.  People are spending an obscene amount
of time on > prize > commemoratives for local competitions.  It's become
a competition > itself:  who > can create the most out-the-wazoo prize
"scroll" this year?  And > then there's > painting minor prize "scrolls"
because we couldn't possibly give > largesse > instead because no-one
keeps diaries anymore so how would they > remember winning > if we didn't
provide them with a piece of paper?  I know some people > like to >
wallpaper their houses with prize "scrolls", and more power to them, >
but in the > meantime our peers and nobles, not to mention all of the
Grant-level > orders, > have little to nothing.  *NOTHING!*  >  > I have
a Laurel letters patent that's so beautiful, so marvelous, so >
incredible > that I cried when I finally was permitted to look at
it--because my  > friends are > scribes.  Qadi Mahdi was told by more
than one knight that they were > all > insanely envious that he got an
incredible "scroll" when he was  > knighted--and > the only reason he did
is because he had friends who were scribes.  > I have been > seriously
contemplating picking up my pen again and going through > sheer h*ll  >
retraining myself for the sole purpose of starting to mow through > the
backlog.   > And because I'm Stellar Scroll now, in charge of achievement
> registration in > Ansteorra, it's become even more tempting.  Between
that, and my > years as > Zodiacus, I'm all too aware just how many
peers, nobles, and > Grant-terminal-award-bearers have few, if any,
documents.  >   > I wouldn't be surprised if there's resentment building.
 I cannot > imagine that > someone hasn't thought, "Look at that fancy >
Warlord/Champion/Bard/Archer/> Eqestrian prize scroll.  They get that for
winning a tournament and > I've been a > peer for
five/ten/fifteen/twenty/twenty-five/thirty years and I > don't have a >
[whatever] scroll!"  I know for a fact that people envy peers who > have
scribe > friends who do original documents for them.  > > I guess my
question is, why would scribes rather throw all of their > effort into  >
an original work that the recipient/victor might not appreciate very  >
much, when > they could throw all of their effort into an original work
that the   > recipient  > desperately wants?  >   > Creating a system
that brings "buyer" and "seller" together so that > both get > what they
want is a good idea.  The internet has made this far  > easier than it >
has ever been before:  Amazon, ebay, abe Books, etc.  Let's give it > a
whirl, > but let's also do what we can to recruit more calligraphers.  > 

Nuala     I tend to disagree (somewhat) with the opinions above.  Again
(for myself), painting the simple, small prize scrolls for a Warlord was
one of the first things I did and, to me, the experience was invaluable
for training purposes.  I learned a lot about colors, controlling paint,
etc. and, since the scrolls were not large and were relatively simple,
they were not near as intimidating as painting, say, an Iris scroll,
first thing out.  I still enjoy painting them because they are relatively
quick to do (Can you say immediate gratification?).  And, if I messed one
up beyond repair (which I did), it is not a real time consuming thing to
redo one like messing up some of the other pre-printed scrolls we do. 
Ditto with painted invitations.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nuala's Other Ideas

To Darius, could you give us an idea of how many of each kind of original
is needed?  This would give all of us a vision of exactly (how bad) the
backlog for these is.

I have only been involved in scribal endeavors for about 18 months (not
very long at all!); however, the Scribes Guild in the Steppes has been a
magnificent experience for me.  Our Guild typically collaborates on our
original scrolls, usually one person handles the calligraphy, one or more
does the line art and one or more paints the originals.  Hopefully, soon
the scrolls we collaborated on for Warlord and Steppes Artisan will be on
the Scribes Web Page so you can see how successful these collaborations
can be.  I think it will demonstrate how well these collaborations can
work.

A point-of-contact for collaborative efforts on originals might be the
principals of the Scribal Guilds in each Barony, Canton, College, Shire,
etc. as typically these people know (or should know) who can and will
work together in their area and who prefers to do a solo work.

Addressing the backlog issue -- it seems to me that this needs to be
taken care of with all the haste we can muster.  The way that seems most
just (to me) is to rank these by time, i.e., if Duke Whosis has been
waiting for his scroll for 15 years, his would be a higher priority than
someone who has been waiting for 6 months.  Also, it would be incumbent
upon the recipient of the scroll to outline the style and special
details, if any, to be included.  In my limited experience, sometimes it
seems that obtaining this information is more difficult than pulling frog
teeth.  

Another option would be to create an area on the Scriptoris Web Page to
post the requests for originals (want ads, if you will) with the details
outlined above.  Any renumerations for such work could be worked out
between the principals.

I apologize for the length of this post.  I didn't mean to blather on!

Nuala


"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem."