SR - Beginning new traditions

[Timothy A. McDaniel]

Pendaran wrote:
> Its the old feudal concept of "My vassal's vassal is my vassal".

The old feudal concept was "The vassal of my vassal is NOT my vassal".
If Lord Richard revolted against Lord John, Richard's men followed
Richard.  They were therefore obedient.  If Richard's men went to
John, they'd be traitors to Richard.  I believe the campfire scene in
_Henry V_ brings out this point.

(rummage rummage)  Ah.  _Henry V_, Act 4, scene 1, at
http://www.gh.cs.usyd.edu.au/~matty/Shakespeare/texts/histories/kinghenryv_4.html#xref019
It's not feudal and doesn't address the point directly, but it does
bring out the period concept of "ve vere chust followink orders":

KING HENRY V
    I dare say you love him not so ill, to wish him here
    alone, howsoever you speak this to feel other men's
    minds: methinks I could not die any where so
    contented as in the king's company; his cause being
    just and his quarrel honourable.
WILLIAMS
    That's more than we know.
BATES
    Ay, or more than we should seek after; for we know
    enough, if we know we are the kings subjects: if
    his cause be wrong, our obedience to the king wipes
    the crime of it out of us.

(Williams then brings up how heavy a reckoning the King will have to
make at Doomsday if the cause be not good, many of his men accusing
the king of their damnation.  Henry's reply is that they did the
mortal sins on their own time, "Every subject's duty is the king's;
but every subject's soul is his own.".  This, however, does not
address the point above.)

Note that William the Conqueror (or Bastard, as you like) made the
great men of the kingdom take the Salisbury Plain oath to him in
108mumble whether or not they were his vassals or not.  He did not
assume that the vassals of his vassals were his vassals.

Now, in later thought, the king assumed a special status.  (E.g.,
"Every subject's duty is the king's".)  However, this was because of
the decay of the feudal system; this was not within feudalism.

Daniel de Lincolia
-- 
Tim McDaniel.   Reply to tmcd at crl.com;
    if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com is my work account.
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