SR - A Question Concerni

[Bob Dewart]

Is becoming a Principality going to make the groups ( shire and barony) get
smaller so they won't need to have as big courts?

Gilli
-----Original Message-----
From: Dennis and Dory Grace <amazing at mail.utexas.edu>
To: southern at Ansteorra.ORG <southern at Ansteorra.ORG>
Date: Tuesday, June 23, 1998 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: SR - A Question Concerni


>Crystal wrote:
>>A couple of years ago, there was a discussion about making principalities
I
>>wrote the up a letter that addressed all the reasons that people gave for
>>dividing up Ansteorra.
>
>Well, first off, that was then and this is now. That proposal did not come
>from the local/regional populace, this one did. Everyone I've spoken to
>about the earlier situation was upset that the mandate for principality was
>being forced on them from above, and that if it were something that sprung
>from a grassroots effort, that would be a totally different story. *Now*
>it's a grassroots effort from withint the region, and some of the people
>who said this to me are *still* objecting. It just goes to show that no
>matter what you do, there will always be some people who aren't satisfied
>and will just have to go against whatever idea is proposed.
>
>>At the bottom I discuss the fact that the last
>>time this was brought up - people seemed to think that we did not a have a
>>choice.  That we would eventually be a principality anyway.  Well, I say
that
>>we do have a choice.
>
>Yes, we do. Nobody "from above" is trying to mandate for us. People
>*within* the region have made the decision to consider a principality and
>are discussing and researching and working on this.
>
>>Two years ago, I wasn't willing to sit by quietly and
>>watch anyone divide up my kingdom, and I have no intention of doing it
now.
>>It is not a forgone conclusion that we will break into principalities.
ONE
>>STAR - ONE KINGDOM!!!
>
>Very nice drum beating (caps and all). Now how about giving some
>consideration to populace desire? How about giving some credit to all the
>individuals willing to do the work and coordinate the events and contribute
>the time and the money to support projects aimed at better informing our
>populace and nurturing our regional identity? How about some credence to
>all the creative energies and enthusiasm that have been flowing into this?
>
>>Sept 7 1996
>>Fellow Ansteorrans:
>
>I'd like to point out, before I offer counters to the counter-arguments,
>that it would seem that the same concerns have been coming up for some
>time. Concerns that keep coming up repeatedly like this are indicative of
>things that need to be adressed with some sort of action. I think we're
>doing the right thing now in actually taking steps to address them instead
>of sweeping them under the rug yet again.
>
>>Reason:  The Kingdom is too big geographically.
>>Counter:  Refer to the map on
http://agn.physics.montana.edu/SCA/index.html
>>You can see from this map that geographically we are about the same size
as
>>most of the other kingdoms.
>
>If people want a smaller, codified secondary area within which to develop a
>closer community spirit, then they should have it.
>
>>Reason: We have too many groups.
>>Counter (1):  I found the number of groups for each kingdom and each
>>principality in the Known World.<snipped info form other kingdoms>
>
>Once again, if folk are feeling some disenfranchisement from the number of
>groups in the kingdom and want to have a scaled down version to interact
>within, then they should have it. Though I can't say as I've heard this
>specifically given as a reason in our present discussions.
>
>>Reason:  We have too many people.
>>Counter: Then why are a number of our baronies  and shires having trouble
>>simply maintaining their minimum membership requirements?
>
>It would seem that to the "We have too many people" reason, you're saying
>"No we don't." That's just a matter of opinion on either side, I'd say,
>though I haven't heard this reason come up in the present discussion,
either.
>
>>Reason: There are so many groups that small groups can not get space on
the
>>calendar .  In order for all the events to take place there are 3 events
>every
>>weekend.  Dividing the Kingodm will make it easier for smaller groups to
hold
>>events.
>>Counter (1):  First, this is not a very good argument, because dividing
the
>>kingdom will not make one bit of difference.  Let me try to explain why.
>Lets
>>say that on a given weekend 300 people plan to go to events in Ansteorra.
>>Each person has their own reasons why they choose a given event.
(Reasons:
>>their friends are going, their interest is there (ie fighting, archery,
>>A&S,ect), ect.)  Now here is the question.  If we put lines on a map,
will
>>this change which events people go to?  I think that people will still
have
>>the same reasons for going to given events and the map will not matter.
>
>Well, here you've just countered your own argument that Baronies outside a
>principality won't support the smaller groups' events.
>
>>Counter (2):  This 3 events per weekend does not make sense.  By my
>>calculations: there are 42 groups and 52 weekends a year.  If there were 3
>>events per weekend, 12 groups would have to hold 3 events a year and the
>other
>>30 groups would have to hold 4 events a year.  Speaking member of a shire
for
>>the past 5 years, I know that most small groups (all ~ 30 of them) are not
>>doing this many events, so who is "hogging" all the dates???  Maybe we
should
>>address this problem seperately.
>
>This is a minor issue. The one nice thing about having a principality and a
>principality newsletter and a published calendar would be that we can be
>better informed as to what smaller "tiny tourney" type events are going on
>that aren't allowed space in the BlackStar, and, silly as it might sound,
>people won't feel as guilty about holding them.
>
>>Reason: The regional officers are not getting enough recognition, and as a
>>principality officer they would have more recognition.
>>Counter:  So lets recognize the regionals more, for that matter, we need
to
>>recognize all the officers more.  I do not think that putting new lines on
a
>>map will make a difference, we simply need to raise the awareness of the
>>populous on this.
>
>Well, it's been two years and this is still being brought up as a valid
>concern. Maybe "putting new lines on a map" *will* make a difference. There
>are those of us who've observed it make a difference in other places; it's
>a phenomenon that's not new.
>
>>Reason: The crown can not make it to all the events that they would like
too,
>>so they would like to have more royalty to go around. (IE: with
>principalitis,
>>there would be "extra" prince/princes to attend other events.)
>>Counter:  One solution to this probelm is to move Crown tourney to right
>after
>>Coronation.  Then let the Prince and Princess go to different events than
the
>>Crown.  This will give up to 4 events that can be covered year round.
(This
>>is what is currently done in some of the other kingdoms, and seems to work
>out
>>well.)
>
>Again, one of those "well, we could do this instead" that hasn't happened.
>This sort of argument is just a red herring. If someone were actually going
>to implement this suggestion,  it would have been done by now. It hasn't.
>Let's move on.
>
>>Reason:  It is too expensive for the crown to travel the whole kingdom.
>>Counter (1):  So don't try for the Crown if you can't afford it.  (This
>sounds
>>harsh, but it is part of the oath that everyone who fights in Crown
>Tournement
>>takes.)
>>Counter (2):  If this is honestly a continual problem,  let us, as a
kingdom,
>>support the crown more.  We can easily raise money via raffles, auctions,
>>special events, ect.
>
>Another example of "we could do this instead" that hasn't happened.
>
>>Perhaps, I am missing something here, but I have not been convinced that
we
>>must divide our home up.
>
>Unfounded emotional appeal.
>
>>1) At Gothic Wars, a man stood up that said that he had lived in a number
of
>>kingdoms and that he had just been in Ansteorra for 2 weeks.  He said that
he
>>had been so impressed with this Kindgom, the people, and its spirit that
he
>>wanted to swear fealty to the kingdom that night.
>
>So, do you believe that the spirit of the people of Ansteorra will be
>destroyed by a region of Ansteorrans creating a principality? Do you really
>believe  the Ansteorran spirit to be so fragile? I don't think so.
>
>>2) I spent several months living in Calontir and although I am not anyone
>>important, but people there did not think that.  They thought I was
someone
>>important because I was an ANSTEORRAN.
>
>Would you feel any less Ansteorran if you had lived within a principality
>of Ansteorra?
>
>>I think that this is very important.  These examples show how people
outside
>>our kingdom see us. It is great!!!  People are really impressed by what we
>>have.  How can we just let that go?
>
>Once again I'm saddened by the unspoken assumptions here--that if we form a
>principality we'll no longer "be Ansteorran" and that our populace is
>somehow lesser than the rest of the kingdom. This despite the energy and
>creativity and contribution that's been evidencing itself lately. We
>deserve better than that.
>
>>For the last 20+ years, this kingdom has grown, acquired a rich history,
and
>>developed a family of people that makes this an incredible place to live.
>>This is the place that I look forward to raising my children and I want
them
>>to be part of this great kingdom.  But now someone wants to take that away
>>from them.
>
>I'm trying to take into consideration that this letter was written two
>years ago when the principality issue was being thrown down from "above"
>and was not from the impetus of the populace. But now we're talking about
>countrymen and kinsmen here, we're talking about our friends and neighbors.
>The Southern Region is fine part of this great kingdom, having contributed
>its share to the rich history of this kingdom, and would make a fine
>contribution as a principality to this kingdom as well. I have that much
>appreciation and that much belief and that much confidence in the
>strong,capable Ansteorrans of this region.
>
>>And as for the idea that creating Pricipalites does not change the
kingdom, I
>>do not believe this for one second.
>
>Neither do I. I think it will be a testament to the ability of Ansteorran
>folk to pull together and create and build. I think of how grand it would
>be to show up at Gulf Wars, our Prince at our King's side, a Principality
>force trained and set at His Majesty's bidding. The possibilities give me
>goosebumps.
>
>>There are people who are too ambitious
>>for us to allow them the easy opportunity to try to be "a bigger fish by
>>making the pond smaller."  Ambitious people will jump at the first
>opportunity
>>to change a principality to a kingdom, for their own "glory".
>
>Again, some very ugly assumptions about your friends and countrymen here.
>These are some very ungenerous statements, especially from one of our
>landeds who I'd think would try to promote more positive expectations of
>the realm. I know this is a two-year-old letter, but these sort of
>statements troubles me gravely.
>
>>Populus Opinion
>
>Populace opinion now, as opposed to then, supports the idea. I say this
>based on the polls taken to date showing somehwere around 75% or better in
>favor. As far as I'm concerned, that's one of the greatest reasons for
>considering and discussing and moving toward forming a
>principality--because of *what people want.* A lot of the renewed energy
>and enthusiasm lately has been in part *due* to principality
considerations.
>
>I *know* that change can be a scary thing, sometimes quite a bit more so
>for some folks than others. Ansteorra's been a kingdom for quite some
>little time now and has yet to birth a principality. No one here has
>anything to go by for comparison as far as past Ansteorran principalities
>go. All anyone has to go on for comparison are those of us who've actually
>lived in a principality outside of this kingdom. Many of us have had
>positive experiences. Based on the caliber of folk here, I have every
>reason to believe it would be a positive experience here, as well as an
>opportunity to set an excellent example for any other area that might
>consider making a principality in the future.
>
>I may not originally be from Ansteorra, but I've been here a while and I'm
>Ansteorran now, and I've grown to care quite a lot for the folks here and
>for the welfare of the populace as a whole. I think they deserve not only
>the benefit of the doubt, but honorable expectations as well.
>
>Aquilanne
>
>
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