SR - Re: ANST - On-line Ansteorra : Comments and rebuttal...
zimmerml at kci1.com
Tue Apr 27 07:00:40 PDT 1999
Sir Kief wrote:
>Heilsa Lionardo Acquistapace...and all Ansteorrans Good and True...
>You wrote these words:
>>I would concur that his business plan for this project is
>>sound and well reasoned. I fully support our going through with this
>Excellent...then why are you trying to sabotage donations...?!
In this I concur. I did indeed forget to conclude my missive in the way HL
Pug so eloquently followed mine by stating that any who should wish to
donate to so worthy a cause should do so.
>Yep...our finances appear quite healthy.......... However, I will
>take issue with Lord Lionardo's reasoning... We all "contribute" to
>the Kingdom coffers with our participation and, some of us, through
>various fund-raisers.... So what? The "fund-raisers" are used for
>specific funding... Each one for special needs...so...those funds are
>effectively not in the Kingdom's "General coffers"... The, "at least
>30%" of the gate at Kingdom events goes to various projects and
>needed improvments in the Kingdom. To wit:
>Printing of Special Editions of the Black Star - "A&S Issue"
>Printing of the O.P....of the Marshalate Rules...of the other various
>As well, the Crown's pittance of a travel fund....
>Lionardo your "contribution" is also money taken away from the local
>group's general coffers for the good of the Kingdom... As such it is
>not a "contribution" at all but just part of the site fee....
Ah, but I would confer that the "various projects and needed improvements in
the Kingdom" would easily include funding for the purposes of a Server for
our Kingdom. This appears to be our basic disagreement, nothing more, and
nothing less. It does not take away" from these things, because it is one of
those things and our finances are in a position, once we see the affects of
ATYC, to easily handle such a financial "burden", if you will. Yet you
>You are whining......
Good Sir, I do not see where I have caused you any harm or grief by
providing an opinion that dissents from your own. Yet you publicaly insult
me by proclaiming that I am a "whiner" because my view on this matter is
different from yours? For shame, Sir. I have never known you to be one to
stoop to such heights and will prefer to assume you have written such in
haste and in good humor, yet I must state that I am insulted and would
request a rescindance. My honor demands no less.
>You state that, "a few swayed the process over to donation stating
>reasons such as "I don't use a computer," or"I'm not a Kingdom
>Officer, so how would Ansteorra.Org benefit me at all? I don't want
>my Kingdom to spend funds on that which I would not use!"...".
>Poppycock...the consensus was such that donations would be used in
>conjunction with Kingdom funding for the project. And, if perchance
>the Kingdom rejected the project, the funds collected would be placed
>into the Kingdom general coffers. The good folk that donated money to
>the project did so out of a sense of love for Ansteorra...not a sense
>of guilt over those few that would not benefit from the project. Your
>argument could be used to deny funding for Equestrian
>activities ...'cause I don't ride a horse...don't use any of MY Money
>to fund it........
Forgive me, I did not state my timing in the meeting correctly. Before the
subject of donations was brought up, the consensus did lean, according to my
notes, to an almost unanimous acceptance of the purchase of this server. I
see also that perhaps I did not make myself clear enough in part of my
resoning regarding the denial of funds for other activities. I did not wish
to imply my arguments were that we should not use Kingdom funds to purchase
needed items for the Kingdom because I don't do that thing, but argued that
this was a fallacious argument to begin with. It was an argument presented
that I was attempting, I guess poorly, to refute, not to support. Hence I
think we SHOULD use Kingdom funds for those things which would benefit the
Kingdom as a whole, even if it does not appear to DIRECTLY affect some or
even many of the individuals of that Kingdom, as long as it benefits the
Kingdom. So yes, I don't ride a Horse (at this time), but I would say, feel
FREE to use MY Kingdom money to fund our Equestrian activities, to fund
regalia, to fund special editions of the Black Star OR to fund a server for
our internet presence.
>Many of the objects that you mentioned in the preceeding paragraph as
>purchases were, in fact, donated to the Kingdom by folks that care
>about the Kingdom...just like the monetary donations that were freely
>given at the RT event for the computer project.
And such things are wonderously donated and wonderously accepted and used in
this fair Kingdom, and I do support such efforts. However, I also support
the idea that our Kingdom finances should be available for such things as
well. We should not so frequently rely on donations if our finances are
healthy enough to handle the burden. It is my belief that our finances are
healthy enough (depending on the outlook after Twentieth Year) to handle
>You obviously think that $1,000 is a lot of money..... given the fact
>that there will be over 1,000 people at Ansteorra' _Twentieth_ Year
>Celebration that works out to be less than a buck per attendee...
$1,000 is not something I consider to be a great deal of money. Indeed it is
already half of the amount needed for a server. My argument is not for the
amount, but for the purpose. If we are so willing to spend $1,000 on an item
that will barely be used, then why the hesitancy to spend only $1,000 more
than that for something that will provide this Kingdom so great a benefit.
>As well, the specific funds in the Kingdom coffers are not all
>available for use... Well over half the funds are dedicated money set
>aside for specific offices and projects...
Which still leave more than enough, in my opinion, to absorb the cost of a
>I personally would not mind seeing the computer project funded
>totally by donations from the populace and using not one penny of
>Kingdom funding for the purchase... Given the fact that there are
>many involved with the project that have been and will be donating
>time, energy, and their own money can we as the good subjects of the
>Crown of Ansteorra do less...?
Huzzah! I applaud your concern and I applaud your service. I ask that you
not presume that my interest in seeing Kindgom funds used for this purpose
be a statement that I do not and will not provide service and donation to
this Kingdom. Should you make such an assumption you would be sorely
mistaken. If you donate, I say Huzzah! For those who have already donated, I
say Huzzah! My argument is not that we should not donate, but that we should
not have the NEED to donate.
[snip of my statements to inform of Seneschal of your thoughts on this
>You got it...! My voice is being heard... Loud and clear. I have not
>yet seen an "un-needed fund raiser". Yours is a specious argument. If
>YOU do not want to contribute actual funding to the project YOU don't
>have to. Certainly this project is what Kingdom funds are designed
>for... Yet, why not let those folks that want to donate to the
>project have the joy of doing so...? If we can save the Kingdom money
>on this and come out of it with an enhanced electronic presence on
>the Web, great...! Besides...this donated money enables the Kingdom
>to do two "enhancement" projects instead of one... If indeed the
>computer project is paid for by donations alone...why, then we, as a
>Kingdom, can fund a new educational or PR project that will bring in
>even more new members........
An excellent counter. But I will stand by my position. Yes, donate if you
wish, nowhere in my arguments did I proclaim one should not donate should
they have that desire. But, I wish to bring a consideration to all that
perhaps we should consider when enough money sitting idly in Kingdom coffers
becomes TOO MUCH money sitting in Kingdom coffers. We have it available, let
us use it. If some other project arises that we do NOT have the money
available for, THEN let us ask for donations. I ask for nothing more.
Honos Servio (Honor I Serve)
Lionardo Acquistapace, Bjornsborg
(Lenny Zimmermann, San Antonio)
zarlor at acm.org
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