[Stargate] Stargate Digest, Vol 9, Issue 14
Kevin Wilson
kevwilson at swbell.net
Sat Jan 13 14:40:48 PST 2007
Actually, I have to comment on that one. While yes, there are and have been
LOTS of people who attack those not striving for authenticity with such zeal
that the negative backlash has repercussions, not everyone who wants it are
like that. There is a difference between being a "snob" and a "bully".
This is coming from the cadet whose Don (who is also a Laurel) is known in
at least 4 different groups as "The Elitist Bastard". Yet none of them call
him "Nazi" (that I or anyone I know of is aware of). While he can and will
show how to dress or fight or make a harp in a way more in keeping with
historical accuracy of the period, or how something being period just LOOKS
and FEELS more right than something that is not, he doesn't turn anyone away
or shun them if they don't do those things, especially if they can't. I try
to emulate many of the aspects of my Don's views, but in some we differ.
There are some things we do that are so historically incorrect that he only
participates out of complete necessity, I do because I enjoy them,
inaccuracy be damned.
Authenticity is what gives the SCA its strength, IMO. We are a group
dedicated to preserving and pursuing recreation of ACTUAL HISTORY, as much
as we may try. We're not shooting fireballs into melees. We're not ONLY
doing combat. We're trying to encompass many of the various ways our world
has changed throughout history and show how not only was it not boring, but
it took (and takes) skill, dedication, passion, and for many, a Dream.
Showing someone a piece of clothing, or weaving, or woodwork, or
metalworking, that shows the level of craftsmanship that they had, and that
we in modern times have in so many ways lost but am trying to find again,
is, to me, one of the most powerful links to the past I think we have, and I
wish we showed it more without being aloof, snobbish, or just plain mean
about it.
I have issues with many of the things that are completely commonplace in the
Society b/c they don't even come close to anything historical. But, there is
a way to try to change things that works, and those that do not. Leading by
example has a tendency to work. Attacking those who may not know better
(especially for those who are new), or those who lack funds (cuz sorry, no
one can convince me that being as period as possible can be done on a
shoestring budget), or just don't feel the need to take this game to that
level, does NOT. EVER.
As said before, the SCA needs to be as inclusive as to allow anyone to play
to their desire, yet also display why doing more than the minimum has it's
benefits and rewards (honor, reputation, awards, renown, whatever). People
get interested and active in the SCA for different reasons. If your reason
is different from mine, fine, it doesn't hurt me in any way.
Corvin
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: The Elephant in the Room (David Whitford)
2. Re: The Elephant in the Room (Michael Silverhands)
3. Re: The Elephant in the Room (Joe McGrew)
4. Re: The Elephant in the Room (David Whitford)
5. Re: The Elephant in the Room (Mike Wyvill)
6. Re: The Elephant in the Room (Alisone MacCay)
7. Re: The other "N" word (was The Elephant in the Room)
(Michael Silverhands)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:03:45 -0800 (PST)
From: David Whitford <dbw6969 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <755273.121.qm at web36606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Just a few points-Im not saying Toras points are wrong, just in need of
clarification I think. WWII groups do not always have folks just fall down,
thats for show battles. Tacticals have a different set of guidlines like we
do. ACW is very similar. As for aunthenticity can we find a different term
rather than nazi, the longer I play and the more I strive for some form of
accuracy the more offensive I find that label.
Robert..babbling from work
--- robert smetek <robertsmetek at yahoo.com> wrote:
> Howdy Y?all,
>
> As a one trick stick jock, who has done other reenactment groups
> before this one, the three things that have kept me coming back time
> and again is the real fighting with fake swords, the fact you can be
> as authentic as you want to be, and the pursuit of
> your personal interpretation of the Dream. >
> Point #1 ? fighting) I have been in Civil War and WWII reenacting.
> They are basically a stage plays.
> You or your commanding officer choose when you go down. I have been
> told ?We?re supposed to win this fight but we?re outnumbered so don?t
> go down to quickly.? Also, I have seen a whole squad get mowed down
> by one pistol shot. Funny to watch but not very realistic. It?s also
> the fact that it?s historical reenactment. I was also in Bamfgaurd at
> one time. That was until I blocked my first fireball with a sword and
> was told I was dead anyway. If I want magic missiles, I?ll play D&D.
> In our combat, when you get hit hard enough to have gone through
> chain, it?s a hit. You have to practice and sweat to get good at this
> game. When I fight, I feel like I?m making a connection to the past.
> When you win, somebody didn?t hand it to you, you earned it yourself.
> Your win was paid for by you with your sweat, tears, pain, and
> sometimes blood.
>
> Point #2 ? authenticity) I know I?m going to upset a few people
> with this one. Let me start off by stating that authenticity can be
> hard and expensive. We strive for authenticity without demanding
> perfection. Maybe a newbie doesn?t have a country or year picked out
> so they go for a generic look for now. Maybe the dinosaur wears the
> same garb every time because they have to scrape up loose change just
> to get in the gate. We encourage an attempt at to at least cover up
> things that are to modern. This loose attitude can be a boon to us.
> In Civil War and WWII reenacting, they get as authentic as possible.
> I mean really authentic.
> One of our Sergeants got demoted for repeatedly wearing his socks on
> the outside of his pants. It didn?t mater if he was a good leader or
> not just that he conformed to regulation dress. On another occasion,
> a newbie had to buy a new Union uniform because the first set he got
> was made out of the wrong type of wool. Those cloths aren?t cheap
> either. This may seam laughable but they mean it. I have met people
> who we?re driven off because of a groups tireless pursuit of
> authenticity. I have witnessed what happens to groups when
> Authenticity Nazis take over. If the equivalent happened in the SCA,
> Kings could take awards away because the person wasn?t dressed
> properly for their persona. A lot of people think it could never get
> this bad but remember that the other groups started with loose
> clothing rules like ours and they slowly got more dictatorial over
> time.
>
> Point #3 ? the Dream) Everybody has there own interpretation of
> what the Dream means to them.
> This is as it should be. It makes your Dream more personal. For me,
> the Dream is a connection to the past. The split second when you
> forget what time period you are really in. It happened to me once
> during a Civil War reenactment. I got up early one morning to check
> on our guards. Being a Sergeant of the color guard, guess who was
> usually put in charge of our camp guards. I walked through the
> perfectly reproduced campsite. It looked like a lived in museum
> display. At the edge of camp, the fog from the nearby field was
> trying to visit us. I glanced across the shrouded field toward the
> enemy earthworks. There in the field was a solder. He glided through
> the fog. Moving without movement.
> In that second, I was no longer a 16 year old high school student
> reenacting the Civil War. In that second, I was Sergeant Smetek of
> the 13th U.S.
> Regulars on a mission for Uncle
> Ab to defend the 13 strips and 34 stars of Old Glory. It was so
> beautiful I cried. If I wasn?t run off by Politics and Authenticity
> Nazis, I might still be on those fields chasing down that one second.
> As it is, I'm still looking for that one second in the SCA when I'm no
> longer a 30something office worker but a 30something peasant Samurai
> fighting to make a name for himself.
>
> Seeya,
>
> Tora
>
>
> ---------------------------------
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:18:33 -0600
From: Michael Silverhands <silverhands at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <230CF7C2-3A38-4C09-841E-8D6FA65C684A at sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:03 PM, David Whitford wrote:
> Just a few points-Im not saying Toras points are
> wrong, just in need of clarification I think. WWII
> groups do not always have folks just fall down, thats
> for show battles. Tacticals have a different set of
> guidlines like we do. ACW is very similar. As for
> aunthenticity can we find a different term rather than
> nazi, the longer I play and the more I strive for some
> form of accuracy the more offensive I find that label.
>
> Robert..babbling from work
>
How about "authenticity zealot" or "...tyrant" or "...dictator"? I
think those words capture the gist of it: someone who, in their
passion to achieve Global Domination... er, I mean, uniform
authenticity... inflicts their vision on others with overbearing and
often thoughtless zeal, unaware (or uncaring) of the harm they are
doing to others and to our society.
Besides, I've met some very nice Nazis in WWII reenactment groups. :-)
Michael
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:32:51 -0600
From: "Joe McGrew" <oscagne at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
To: "Barony of Stargate" <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID:
<5f8f4acd0701121032y403ddfcl50c639e952ab448f at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/12/07, Michael Silverhands <silverhands at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> On Jan 12, 2007, at 12:03 PM, David Whitford wrote:
>
> > Just a few points-Im not saying Toras points are
> > wrong, just in need of clarification I think. WWII
> > groups do not always have folks just fall down, thats
> > for show battles. Tacticals have a different set of
> > guidlines like we do. ACW is very similar. As for
> > aunthenticity can we find a different term rather than
> > nazi, the longer I play and the more I strive for some
> > form of accuracy the more offensive I find that label.
> >
> > Robert..babbling from work
> >
>
> How about "authenticity zealot" or "...tyrant" or "...dictator"? I
> think those words capture the gist of it: someone who, in their
> passion to achieve Global Domination... er, I mean, uniform
> authenticity... inflicts their vision on others with overbearing and
> often thoughtless zeal, unaware (or uncaring) of the harm they are
> doing to others and to our society.
>
> Besides, I've met some very nice Nazis in WWII reenactment groups. :-)
>
> Michael
I don't know if we should shy away from the word, at least not in this
particular conversation. Y'all are discussing (at least partly) what
other groups have going for them that may be draining our new
recruits. And "Nazi" is a word that THEY use.
Specific example: I was grumping about a word someone had with me as a
beginner on my LiveJournal. A friend who's into Dagohir replied that
I should "forget those garb-Nazis and come play with us... we don't
care what you wear as long as it's not street clothes."
My own anecdotal datum, anyway.
Gregor MacBeathain
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:34:05 -0800 (PST)
From: David Whitford <dbw6969 at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <20070112193405.81409.qmail at web36603.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I think I'm gonna withdraw from this topic before I
get in trouble.
Robert
--- Joe McGrew <oscagne at gmail.com> wrote:
> > How about "authenticity zealot" or "...tyrant" or
> "...dictator"? I
> > think those words capture the gist of it: someone
> who, in their
> > passion to achieve Global Domination... er, I
> mean, uniform
> > authenticity... inflicts their vision on others
> with overbearing and
> > often thoughtless zeal, unaware (or uncaring) of
> the harm they are
> > doing to others and to our society.
> >
> > Besides, I've met some very nice Nazis in WWII
> reenactment groups. :-)
> >
> > Michael
>
> I don't know if we should shy away from the word, at
> least not in this
> particular conversation. Y'all are discussing (at
> least partly) what
> other groups have going for them that may be
> draining our new
> recruits. And "Nazi" is a word that THEY use.
>
> Specific example: I was grumping about a word
> someone had with me as a
> beginner on my LiveJournal. A friend who's into
> Dagohir replied that
> I should "forget those garb-Nazis and come play with
> us... we don't
> care what you wear as long as it's not street
> clothes."
>
> My own anecdotal datum, anyway.
>
> Gregor MacBeathain
> _______________________________________________
> Stargate mailing list
> Stargate at lists.ansteorra.org
>
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>
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------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 20:11:23 +0000
From: "Mike Wyvill" <wyvillmike at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
To: stargate at lists.ansteorra.org
Message-ID: <BAY133-F16419452D30A2F4C1D25D5D4B00 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Maven. Maven is good.
>From: David Whitford <dbw6969 at yahoo.com>
>Reply-To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
>To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
>Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
>Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 11:34:05 -0800 (PST)
>
>I think I'm gonna withdraw from this topic before I
>get in trouble.
> Robert
>--- Joe McGrew <oscagne at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > How about "authenticity zealot" or "...tyrant" or
> > "...dictator"? I
> > > think those words capture the gist of it: someone
> > who, in their
> > > passion to achieve Global Domination... er, I
> > mean, uniform
> > > authenticity... inflicts their vision on others
> > with overbearing and
> > > often thoughtless zeal, unaware (or uncaring) of
> > the harm they are
> > > doing to others and to our society.
> > >
> > > Besides, I've met some very nice Nazis in WWII
> > reenactment groups. :-)
> > >
> > > Michael
> >
> > I don't know if we should shy away from the word, at
> > least not in this
> > particular conversation. Y'all are discussing (at
> > least partly) what
> > other groups have going for them that may be
> > draining our new
> > recruits. And "Nazi" is a word that THEY use.
> >
> > Specific example: I was grumping about a word
> > someone had with me as a
> > beginner on my LiveJournal. A friend who's into
> > Dagohir replied that
> > I should "forget those garb-Nazis and come play with
> > us... we don't
> > care what you wear as long as it's not street
> > clothes."
> >
> > My own anecdotal datum, anyway.
> >
> > Gregor MacBeathain
> > _______________________________________________
> > Stargate mailing list
> > Stargate at lists.ansteorra.org
> >
>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/stargate-ansteorra.org
> >
>
>
>__________________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:19:00 -0600
From: "Alisone MacCay" <alisone.maccay at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
To: "Barony of Stargate" <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <014401c73686$e6b9c3c0$a703a8c0 at LegacyGroup.local>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
Okay...I am thinking about all this coming from those people I knew in
college, those who are my sister's age now, and even some of my coworkers.
The biggest thing I keep getting told is history is boring. I know that
younger people who are below high school for the most part are easier in a
way to entice into liking history for a short period of time, but when you
get older from high school on (at least from what I have seen) it is just
here is a history book...here is some lectures...read these dead guys'
writings...now give an opinion on it...I don't care that you don't care just
do it mentality. So where in all that school work for history and the
Social Studies is there a draw really. Even in English literature classes
where they study the medieval proses do you see kids turning away because it
makes no sense to them and few people sitting there to help them understand.
>From where I stand in my opinion really...is there a way to show people
outside of just fighting the fact that there is fun involved or put a
different spin on it so that it is not Ren Faire...but not just seen as
people recreating historical life?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Wyvill" <wyvillmike at hotmail.com>
To: <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Friday, January 12, 2007 11:51 AM
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
>I think that attracting younger people is certainly one of the biggest
> concerns we (the SCA) should have as a group. I see the list of dormant or
> dead colleges listed on the Kingdom website and know each of those
> represents lost opportunties. I have also seen what the Boy Scouts called
> Explorer Posts and now call Venturing Crews (male and female, aged 14-21)
> in
> other areas that are dedicated to re-enacting or even LARP!
>
> Those could be things to explore.
>
> 2 pence from Gates Edge
> Engenulf
>
>
>>From: "John Hirling" <jhirling at gmail.com>
>>Reply-To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>To: "Barony of Stargate" <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>Subject: Re: [Stargate] The Elephant in the Room
>>Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 10:57:24 -0600
>>
>>not an "either/or" but a "both/and
>>
>>Whether we are talking about recruiting, how to have more fun and make our
>>activities more fun for others, or where is the best place (and what is
>>the
>>best time) to gather for Populace, the more information, opinions, and
>>angles the better. Even what might be deemed by some as a 'bad idea' can
>>be
>>helpful.
>>
>>ihon
>>Baron of Stargate
>>
>>On 1/11/07, Michael Silverhands <silverhands at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Jan 11, 2007, at 9:01 PM, Thomas atte Woode (Tom Smith) wrote:
>> > > ... Let's start a conversation.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Ok, I'll bite.
>> >
>> > > I have been thinking about our recruiting problems. It seems to me
>> > > that in the early days, the SCA was pretty much the only game in
>> > > town for those interested in "having fun in a medieval manner". We
>> > > were the original. Since then, the number of choices have
>> > > multiplied: Ren Faires, Amtgard, Live Action Roleplaying (LARP)
>> > > groups. All of these groups put a different spin on things, but I
>> > > think we are all tapping in to the same general ethos - creating a
>> > > pretend world of chivalry and adventure. As a result, we are
>> > > competing with each other for the same resource - new people that
>> > > might be interested in our games.
>> > >
>> > > In this kind of situation, it is worthwhile to ask what these
>> > > groups do that we don't. Is there some way of making the game more
>> > > fun and attractive to prospective young members that we can learn
>> > > from them?
>> > >
>> > > I'm not saying there is. Just that there might be. It may be that
>> > > the best we can do is maintain our own distinct identity, and
>> > > accept that we will attract a certain share of the population for
>> > > which we are the right "fit", and other will go elsewhere.
>> >
>> > You're right that each of those groups offers something different,
>> > and to somewhat the same pool of potential members. But it might be
>> > more worthwhile to ask what *we* offer that *they* don't, and figure
>> > out how to promote *that*.
>> >
>> > In business, it's attractive -- sometimes fatally so -- to focus on
>> > what the competition's doing, and try to "one up" them at their own
>> > game. This can work when you're selling a commodity head-to-head
>> > against others who are selling essentially the same thing (e.g. fast
>> > food).
>> >
>> > But it can be a disaster when you sell a specialty product.
>> >
>> > There's a saying in business: "Compete or innovate." We don't really
>> > want to compete head-to-head against Ren Faires, Amtgard, LARP, etc.
>> > -- nor do I think we need to. In terms of that saying, we "innovate"
>> > -- i.e., we offer something(s) that they don't.
>> >
>> > So... let's figure out what stands us apart (and hopefully above, in
>> > the eyes of our potential new members) and "sell" that when we do our
>> > demos.
>> >
>> > *passing the cup* Somebody else's turn to play. :-)
>> >
>> > Michael
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Stargate mailing list
>> > Stargate at lists.ansteorra.org
>> > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/stargate-ansteorra.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>--
>>Rev. John F. Hirling
>>Interim Pastor
>>First Presbyterian Church
>>Angleton, TX 77515
>>(979) 849-5722
>>_______________________________________________
>>Stargate mailing list
>>Stargate at lists.ansteorra.org
>>http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/stargate-ansteorra.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> Stargate at lists.ansteorra.org
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 2007 14:22:51 -0600
From: Michael Silverhands <silverhands at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Re: [Stargate] The other "N" word (was The Elephant in the
Room)
To: Barony of Stargate <stargate at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <2C99938C-9B75-4F09-B313-6E7D160BBC93 at sbcglobal.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jan 12, 2007, at 2:11 PM, Mike Wyvill wrote:
> Maven. Maven is good.
>
>
<http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maven>
n. A person who has special knowledge or experience; an expert;
someone who is dazzlingly skilled in any field
Hmmm... "maven" *is* a kinder-sounding word, but it doesn't really
capture the negative connotations associated with an "authenticity
bully" (another possibility), someone who goes around rudely
inflicting their world-view on others. "Authenticity snob" would also
work; in fact, I think I like it best of all.
Michael
------------------------------
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