ANST - Principality Arms Discussion

Rollie W. Reid carcassonnais at geocities.com
Fri Feb 20 20:22:57 PST 1998


I should have known that Daniel de "Whatever de Jour" would get all 
worked up about what I said.  I was not trying to suggest something I 
had researched, I was just trying to bring things back into the realm 
of simple heraldry.

Conor

lucetis sicut luminaria in mundo


-----Original Message-----
From:	Tim McDaniel [SMTP:tmcd at crl.com]
Sent:	Friday, February 20, 1998 12:23 AM
To:	ansteorra at Ansteorra.ORG
Subject:	RE: ANST - Principality Arms Discussion

On what-iffing possible principality arms ...

clward at mmm.com [SMTP:clward at mmm.com] wrote:
> On a sable field with a seme' of stars, a seated lion,
> crowned, facing out towards the observer, holding a sun,
> with the stars, lion, crown, and sun all Or .  Do the
> obligatory laurel wreath around the edges of the shield
> like a border, and make it gold, too.

I agree with Pug:
- rather non-period style
- too complex
- with connected charges being yellow, it's all a yellow
  mass in the middle

Also, a laurel wreath has to be a wreath -- that is,
circular (with a bit of gap at the top).  A "wreath" in orle
/ on a bordure has been cause for return for years.  (Yes,
Calontir's arms would not be registered today.  "We are not
bound by the mistakes of the past.)

On Thu, 19 Feb 1998, Rollie W. Reid wrote:
> Sable, a crowned lion rampant, within a laurel wreath or.

Please let me go into herald fu mode for some grungy
details.  You Have Been Warned.

Charges significantly smaller than the beast are what the
SCA terms "maintained charges".  They do not get counted for
difference in conflict-checking.  There is a precedent for
laurel wreaths:

  C{o^}te du Ciel, Shire of.  Device.  Gyronny gules and Or,
  a bear rampant argent, maintaining in its dexter forepaw a
  laurel wreath vert, a bordure ermine.

     A number of commenters expressed concern that the
     laurel wreath did not constitute "a significant element
     of the design", as required by the Administrative
     Handbook, I.D.2.  Given that we do not normally grant
     any difference for maintained charges, this opinion has
     weight.  [Returned.]

Therefore, a crowned lion is likely to be considered to not
have a crown at all for purposes of the rules.  That's not a
problem for a principality, since they aren't required to
have a crown.  It'd likely be a problem if the principality
wanted to go kingdom with the same arms.

However, crowned lions are quite common even in early period
armory.  Being a radical, I'd try to get the entire
laurel-wreath and crown rules repealed, but that might take
a while!  Otherwise, I'd try to argue against the precedent,
because I think it's a bad precedent.  Otherwise, I'd go
with a Big, Bold, Butch crown in a vivid red, for the best
possible visibility.

Most likely, the crown would have to turn gold or white and
float up above the lion's head.  Exactly the same size, just
as visible ... yet now it's a "secondary charge" and thus
Significant.  (Yes, I dislike some rules sometimes.)

(You may say that a red crown-on-top-of-the-head breaks the
"rule of tincture": red on black.  There are plenty of
examples of crowned lions in period having color-on-color or
even metal-on-metal crowns WRT the field.  Most crowned
lions in period had gold crown, but most of the other
tinctures have examples too -- see Beast-Lion in
_Anglo-Norman Armory II_, or examples in a von Volborth book
and in _Heraldry_ by Bedingfeld and Gwynn-Jones.  With a
gold lion, a gold crown really would be insignificant.)

But I'm not sanguine about a red crown on the head.

Daniel "I'm a herald -- there must be a pun" de Lincolia
--
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com; if that fail, 
tmcd at austin.ibm.com
is work address.  tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is wrong tool.  Never use 
this.
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