A couple more questions on war

[Kevin Varner]

> 
> <Duncan<kmv at abm.austin.tx.us (Kevin Varner)>>
> >On a slightly different note regarding drums on the field and "good D&C".
> >Drums early on tended to be used as signaling devices rather than
> >cadence setters.  A flurry of drum to get sub-commanders attention
> >and signal flags used to send the orders.  The concept of "wide scale
> >D&C" as we know it in European armies come about after 1700.
> 
> Hmm.  Not to sound arguementative, but can you document that?
> Certainly. I'll grant that their use is late in period, perhaps even so
> much as post-1500, but certainly not 1700.
> 
> My evidence is fairly simple, it's true.  With it I shall try and establish
> that *some* armies in "Period" (600-1600) were in fact using "Large Scale
> D&C"; as well as make a clear suggestion that Drums might have had a part
> in maintaining what we today would refer to as a cadence for troop movement.
> 
> 1.	Hale, John R.  The Art of War and Renaissance England, 1961.
> 	Facing page 36 is a reprint of the Frontispiece for Niccolo 
> 	Machiavelli's The Art of War, translated into English in 1560,
> 	showing a drummer as one of the supporters of the title.
> 
> 2.	Ibid.  Page 42 discusses the French attempts to begin using units
> 	based on the "Roman" system, and on the facing page is a reprint of
> 	a page from Raimond de Beccarie de Pavie, Sieur de Fourquevaux, 
> 	Instructions for the Wars, trans. Paul Ive, 1589; showing a unit
> 	in a complex formation.  True no drummers are mentioned are shown,
> 	but I'm more concerned about the formation in this case.
> 
> 3.	Ibid.  Facing page 48 is a picture reprinted from Thomas Styward,
> 	The Pathway to Martial Discipline. 1581, clearly diagraming the
> 	author's "ideal" unit formation.  In the center are two ranks of
> 	Fife and Drummer, one ahead of the captains, sergeants and surgeons,
> 	the other behind.
> 
> 4.	Machiavelli, Nicolo.  The Art of War. (First published in Italian, 1521)
> 	Book 2, [physical training for soldiers]  "third, he must learn to
> 	keep his proper place, both in marching, in fighting and encamping."
> 
> 5.	Ibid.  Book 2 [Forms of the solid double square; a second method for
> 	forming the solid double square] "... the Constable with the color 
> 	bearer and the musician stand in the space between the five ranks of
> 	pikemen and the fifteen of shieldmen..." (as well as a description of
> 	some fairly nice, simple battalion scale D&C).
> 
> 6.	Ibid.  Book 2 [Military Music]  "When well handled, this music
> 	regulates the army, which by moving in paces that corresponds to its
> 	beats, easily keeps in rank.  Thence it is that the ancients had
> 	whistles and fifes...  But today military music generally yeilds
> 	no other benefit than the making of a noise"  (Hey, I'm at least
> 	honest in my evidence :); however: )
> 
> 6.	OED, 2d Ed.  "Drummer"...1. One who beats a drum for public or 
> 	military purposes; one who plays the drum in a band....
> 	1573/80  Baret, Avl. D 1309 "A drummer or plaier on the drumme"
> 	1580     Nottingham rec. IV 196 "Payed to the drummer, xvj d."
> 	1593     Shakespeare, 3 Henry VI, iv vii 50 "Drummer strike vp,
>                  and let us march away."
> 
> "Mihi Satis Apparet Propter     Diarmuit Ui Dhuinn
>   Se Ipsum Appetenda Sapientia"	University of Northkeep
>  -- St. Dunstan			Northkeepshire, Ansteorra
> 				(I. Marc Carlson/IMC at vax2.utulsa.edu)
> 
 Diarmuit,
     You have tweaked my interest. It looks like I have some research
 to do. Unfortunately my library is not as accessible as yours apparently
 is considering the rapidness of your response :). I have to go home and
 look things up. I suggest we table this one for now. I have a couple of
 friends who are also very interested in the subject. Who knows - "There
 might be a paper in it!"

 Duncan