ANST - Johan's last post for the day/weekend :-)

[Alan J. Boertjens]

Let's kill the 'dry sites' thread.
I'm sure people will start complaining about mailboxes being full.

I will make a few more remarks on this topic and if anyone wants to
reply to it, please send it to me privately, and we can keep it going
that way...I'll even volunteer to run it as a manual listserv for
all those who decide to respond.


Here goes...

I'm not defending alcoholism or for getting plastered at events, 
but the right to have alcohol at an event at all.


"Pat St. Jean" <psj at cgmlarson.com> wrote:
> You don't like what's going on, quit complaining and do something.
> Speak with your pocketbook.  
> Take your event and the revenues it generates for the landowner
  somewhere else.  
> And be sure to let them know WHY you are doing that.

I am doing just what you suggest:
I speak with my pocketbook by not attending events that are 'dry', or
   are owned and operated by YMCA or Boy Scouts.
I am letting everyone here (including future autocrats who choose
   sites) know WHY I am doing just this by posting these issues
   on this forum.


"Pat St. Jean" <psj at cgmlarson.com> wrote:
> On the other hand, if you REALLY can't handle spending a weekend
> without alchohol, you need to talk to someone.  Try AA.

You still don't get the point.

I choose not to go to 'dry' events for the reasons I just stated above.  
You are still trying to correlate the issue with with alcoholism and AA.


"Pat St. Jean" <psj at cgmlarson.com> wrote:
> I think you'll find that MOST people are flexible enough to 
> understand that.

I agree, but quite a few sites are bound by their national 
organization's charters and mission statements.


> And the ones that aren't won't change their minds, 
> so forget about them.

Exactly why we need to look for alternate sites rather than 'giving-in'
to the YMCA, Boy Scouts, and National Parks.  This will most likely
leave sites privately owned by individuals.  Or the best alternative,
our own site.  I hope we can make it on the sites we have until
we can establish a land fund and actually get said site.


Graf Galen Kirchenbauer wrote:
> If we own the property, then _we_ could need that insurance. (I
> am not in the legal or insurance fields, someone more conversant with
> them would need to answer specifics here).  If that is the case, we
> might soon find it too expensive to allow wet events on our own
> property!

This is exactly the kind of pressure that is ultimately affecting
our group's activities.  The groups that are influencing us are:
- Directly owned and operated Christian-based campsites.
- Individuals (usually religious) who sit on committees and
  make or uphold 'dry' policies for counties and cities.
- Individuals who seek out the quick buck, via a lawsuit, that 
  forces us to get insurance for events.

The best way to change underlying ideology is through the pocketbook.
These groups are nickle-and-diming us to the point where they are
forcing us to change policy.  I'm just pointing these things out
so that we can react to them, hopefully early enough.  I believe that
the best way to achieve this independence and ensure our future is to:
- start a land fund,
- get our own site,
- have every person attending an event sign a waiver releasing
  the SCA and the campsite from legal liability.  The liability
  would fall onto the individuals involved in any incidents.


Damaris of Greenhill wrote:
> It does boil down to one's own personal responsibility for
> themselves, doesn't it.

This is definitely the solution.  
Let's see if we can come up with a way to get the liability of the SCA
and the campsite out of the picture and back on the individual.

Will a well-written "legalese" waiver cover this in Texas/Oklahoma?
If so, it would be well worth pursuing.


Well, I've stirred up enough for one day  :-)
Boy I sure am glad that my Unix machine was busy running simulations
all day, it gave me some downtime to post some messages.

I know I ruffled a few feathers here today but...
I'm taking tomorrow off from work and will be busy all weekend,
so I won't be able to respond to the listserv until Monday morning.
I'm sure there will be a couple of hundred messages by then... :-)

~Ld.Johan Bjornsson
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