ANST - AOA/GOA etc courts - Brand new, help!

[Tim McDaniel]

On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Gunthar / Michael F. Gunter
<mfgunter at fnc.fujitsu.com> wrote:
> > If you care about historical naming, you won't use the
> > "legal name allowance" in registration, but ideally try
> > to find the name element in that spelling in the period
> > culture you want.
>
> I think "Lloyd von Eaker" was a pretty good use for "Lloyd
> Eaker" don't you?

I have no evidence that "Lloyd von Eaker" is compatible with
any "historical naming" practices. I strongly doubt that it
is, though he might have more evidence.

The rest of this note is about mixed-language naming.
You Have Been Warned.

Lloyd is a Welsh name.  "von" is German (or perhaps Low
Countries, I suppose).  I don't know where Eaker comes from,
except that Bahlow's _Dictionary of German Names_ has Ecker,
Egger "after the dwelling place on the corner (uff der Egg),
see Eck".  (Bahlow says "-er" means "of", a patronymic
particle, "<verb>+'-er' = <noun>" (like "runner"); I gather
"Ecker" is of the first form.)  Of course, it could be some
other language, but then "von" would make no sense -- or I
simply don't have the documentation that exists.

As for combinations: as Tangwystyl / Heather Rose Jones
<hrjones at uclink.berkeley.edu>, Name Balrog of the West,
wrote (28 Jan 1997):
> Yes, having name elements from different cultures was
> relatively common -- for particular combinations of
> particular cultures.  Imported French surnames with
> Anglo-Saxon-origin given names; borrowed English given
> names in Welsh constructions; Arabic origin locatives in
> Spanish names; etc. But what I put together above was a
> combination of Anglo-Saxon, Russian, Arabic, and Irish
> elements.  ["Eadwine Groznye ibn Achmed o Seachnasaigh"]
> "Some cultural mixing in names" does not equal "any
> and all cultural mixing in names".  I know that this is
> harder to grasp than a binary system, but it's the way the
> world works.
>
> I have been heavily involved in looking at real naming
> practices from actual documents ...
>
> Let's look at an example.  In various research projects, I
> have examined something over 7300 personal names appearing
> in Welsh records in six different source documents
> covering the 6th through 16th centuries.  In those, I have
> found: names composed entirely of Welsh elements; names
> combining Welsh and Anglo-Saxon elements; names combining
> Welsh and English elements; names combining Welsh and
> Irish elements; names combining Welsh and Latin elements;
> and in documents written by French speakers, names
> combining Welsh elements with French translations of
> common bynames.

Note that she has not (yet?) found any combination of Welsh
in Wales with anything other than the nearest two
neighboring cultures.  (Elsewhere, she extends it to French
-- perhaps because some French names migrated to England?)
The "documents written by French speakers" is a fascinating
paper: it studies records of Welsh mercenaries serving in
France.  If you think SCA heralds mangle names, imagine a
nervous French paymaster with a Welsh soldier in front of
him wanting his pay!  I imagine it being "Just write
something, idiot, and give him his money!".

I have no evidence of Welsh given names being used in German
names, and apparently neither does Tangwystyl.  If there
were a Saint Llwyd of some fame, I might find a borrowing
somewhat plausible (e.g., "Teresa" travelling from Spain
elsewhere in late period), but I have no evidence of that.
If he was born in Wales, realize that they rarely used
toponymics -- generic place names, like "on the hill", "by
the brook".  (I can't say "didn't" because I haven't checked
my Known World Heraldic Symposium Proceedings lately, but
the overwhelming pattern is "X ap Y" or "X ferch Y":
son/daughter of.)  "On the corner" isn't close to any Welsh
name pattern I've seen.

Another problem with name combinations: only one person
writes the name.  In all the cases we've yet seen, he
doesn't switch spelling systems in the middle of a name.
He's writing a charter *in French*, or a chronicle *in
Gaelic*, or a list of taxpayers *in Latin*.  One of the
biggest causes for changes and returns for Irish or Scots
names in the SCA is one name being written in English
spelling conventions and the other in Gaelic -- the
"Cainhtheoghahhernh O'Malley" problem.

What the French did in the paymaster records was either
render the name according to French spelling conventions, or
if they knew the etymology they might write the French name
with the same meaning.  "Ieuan Wyn [a captain] appears
variously as Ieuan, Jehan, and Jacques", though they never
learned that "gwyn" was "blanc".  Llywelyn was "Blewelin,
Claulin, Cleolin, Clolin, ... Lawelin, Lelin, Lemwlin,
... The Welsh 'Ll-' sound has troubled every culture that
has tried to write it."  She did find an example starting
with "Ll-".  I think it can only be explained as the French
scribe having access to Welsh spelling examples.

Lloyd is an English version of Llwyd ("grey, holy"), says
Gruffudd's _Welsh Personal Names_.  I'm not sure of a
Germanning, but they did have Loy as a given name.  If the
German scribe had heard the name, I'd na{i:}vely expect
Loyd.  On the other hand, if the scribe were Welsh, he
wouldn't have written Eaker: Welsh never used the letter K.

All in all, Lloyd von Eaker seems unlikely to me as a
period-style name in any place or time.  But it's not my
problem, or anyone's problem, really.  He didn't ask my
advice, and I'm not the Heraldry Police, for which you ought
to thank G*d five times daily.

Daniel "up against the wall, mofo!" de Lincolia
-- 
Tim McDaniel; Reply-To: tmcd at crl.com; if that fail, tmcd at austin.ibm.com
is work address.  tmcd at tmcd.austin.tx.us is wrong tool.  Never use this.
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