ANST - Lists of Peers, the next generation, or deep south 35, or voyageur...

[Paul Mitchell]

Galen of Bristol here...

Baron Kazimir writes:

>I'd like to just break down and bring into this forum the very topic (being
>elsewhere discussed) that spawned all this peer (ac)counting:
>
>Several peers in the West have come up with a proposal to put before the Board
>of Directors suggesting the creation of a fourth peerage Order for PROWESS in
>rapier, archery, possibly equestrian, and a few more "other martial fields."
>They started a list to discuss this proposal.  As you might guess a lot MORE
>that JUST that specific proposal was discussed.  During those discussions
>various folks were publishing numbers of (active) peers in their Kingdoms and
>comparing the numbers (kingdom to kingdom, order to order, etc).  Thus the
>Ansteorran peer counts..
>
>Some (not all) of the high points of the discussion there:
>
>1) The Board has, in the past (last time I remember being several years ago),
>responded to inquiries with statements along the lines of "the existing three
>peerages are sufficient," and "there is not yet sufficient demand for another
>peerage."  But no elaboration followed as to what the BoD would consider
>sufficient demand, or just HOW they felt that those orphan martial arts should
>be included into the 3 existing peerages.

Which seems a good thing, as the Board is a rotating group of
people, and nothing they said 5 years ago about future criteria
for action could be considered binding on the current notables 
now serving.

>2)  Other Kingdoms have given archers and rapier folks peerages, but never
>expressly for excellence/prowess with the weapons in their field.  The prowess
>was acknowledged, but the laurels were given for period research into fighting
>and accouterments, passing on these period methods, making accouterments, etc;
>the  Pelicans were given for service related directly to the arena of rapier
>combat/archery.  Never for the "prowess" per se.

Ansteorra gave a Laurel to Master Leon Donne, largely for his
work in archery.  Master Iolo FitzOwen, known perhaps equally
as a bowsmith and bard, surely was recognized for both when
he was made a Laurel.  Likewise Master Tivar's pelican surely 
owes much to his work in starting rapier combat here.  So it's 
not just "other" kingdoms that have done this.  

>3)  Peer-level prowess in these orphan martial arts (coupled with possessing all
>the other general peerage qualities) ought to warrant a peerage.., whether one
>of the existing 3, or another one.

"Orphan" martial arts?  What a curious term; it seems to carry
an emotianal charge to it.

This is a curious assertion, that every time someone takes the
field, no matter for what purpose, that sufficient expertise 
should entitle that person to -- essentially -- knighthood?
One of the "orphan martial arts" you haven't specified, but
which is specified in Sir Jon's proposal, is "scouting", which
is a popular thing at Pennsic's woods battle, but which we don't
do a lot of in Ansteorra.  I just can't see a peerage for running
up to the king and saying "35 Easterners coming from that way!"
at one event per year.  No matter how well you do it.

Likewise, these pursuits aren't universal to the SCA.  Equestrian
is barely underway in Ansteorra, and rapier combat is still
banned in some kingdoms.  How can we have universal recognition 
for non-universal pursuits?  Do we presently have peerage-quality
active archers in Ansteorra?

>4)  The 3 we have are sufficient:  laurel for A&S, pelican for service, and
>chivalry for martial activities.  Therefore, the last should be opened up to
>allow for the inclusion of "the rest of the martial activities".  This might be
>accomplished by:
<a-d snipped>

These would suit me better than anything other than the status quo.
Not that I like the idea, but because the Chivalry all meets together,
so it would be the present knights and masters voting on these
candidates.

>5)  Naked Patents should be made legal (they are NOT right now) so that those
>who fall outside the "Big 3" peerages can receive due recognition (possibly in
>the form of some "noble title").

I have a better idea.  Abolish patents of arms altogether.  They
serve no positive purpose.

>6)  The Pelican should be eliminated and we should just go back to one big Order
>of the Laurel, with Knights of the Laurel for fighting and Masters of the Laurel
>for "other than fighting" and for fighters who don't want to swear fealty.

The SCA is so broke that we need to abolish an order that's been
around for 25 years, and combine two others that have been 
seperate for 33 years?  I don't think so.  BTW, Knights have
been around since day one in the SCA; Masters of Arms and 
Laurels came in at 12th Night in AS II.  Knights and Laurels
were never one order.

>7)  Nothing new is needed.., at all.  Everything is fine as is.

I think that if someone wants more widespread recognition for
what they do, the model to follow is that of the White Scarf
treaty, which is spreading recognition for rapier combat all
over the known world, without the BoD's involvement.  A first,
by the way.

>That's all I can think of right now, though I am sure I left out lots (over 600
>posts of activity in the first 4-5 days!!)

I just know this thread will get enough traffic to chase me
back off this list.

>Anyway, I felt it time to maybe discuss this in an open forum.  Is it time to
>look at recognizing "the rest of the martial community" for peer-level prowess
>with their weapons of choice?  If so, how?  If not, why not?  Etc.

To think that _every_ possible SCA activity should be able to
recognized by a peerage seems to me to be a fallacy.  

>Kazimir Petrovich

- Galen
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