[Ansteorra] Lordship vs Honorable Lord

Sat May 8 08:00:34 PDT 2004

This is why, when sounding period is an issue for me, I choose Her 
Excellency, Lady Aethelyan Moondragon ... As far as I have been able to 
determine, that's how a Baroness would be introduced. When spoken to by 
a "lower rank" I would be Lady. However, when SCA rank is the issue, I 
use "Mistress" to denote the peerage. However, that is rarely necessary. 
To my friends, of course (including both Alden and Snorri :) ), I'm 
"Hey, you!" :)

Aethelyan Moondragon
Bryn Gwlad

Paul DeLisle wrote:
> Ohh, goody...my favorite soapbox (well...one of them!)
> 
> First off; let's remember one thing: The usage of almost all Titles in the
> SCA are fabrications. In almost all cases, they are used improperly compared
> to period usage, or are freely exchanged with other titles in-period. (As an
> example, "Don" could easily mean the (SCA) equivilent of Lord, Baron, or
> Knight...whereas "Lord" can easily mean Baron, Knight, or King. (and we
> won't *even* get into "Duke", "Master", and "Count"...) So, to conclude: the
> SCA creates it's own etymology. (*shrug* Hey, we even divide our
> crafts-perons into Arts and Sciences, and our fighting into Heavy and
> Light....it's our way.)
> 
> Now, with *that* out of the way...
> Years ago, in the Dark Ages, when Giants walked the earth (well, except for
> Lloyd...he was a short Giant *g*), the titles chosen for a Grant-level award
> were His Lordship/Her Ladyship. This worked *fine*; it was easy to say,
> worked as both a Title, and a method of address (Your Lordship, etc), and
> differentiated easily from an Armigerous-level award.
> 
> HOWEVER (comma) about 15 years ago...some herald somewhere (I'm fairly
> certain that Laurel Sovereign started it at the SCA level; but not positive)
> decided that "His Lordship" sounded "too modern", and that it was "really
> only a Victorian affectation." Therefore, it was decreed that we will now
> only use "The Honorable Lord" and "The Honorable Lady"; a horrible mouthful
> to spew out, with no clear attendent method of address. For some
> unfathomable reason, the idea stuck. (Probably because most *other* Kingdoms
> at the time didn't *have* Grant-level awards...they use "Awards of High
> Merit" and the like...still AoA-level, but ranked above other AoA's. As
> such, Grant-levels were in the minority.)
> 
> So, let's examine the thinking here, eh?
> The primary argument against "His Lordship" (et al) is non-periodicity.
> 
>    THIS IS PATENTLY FALSE.
> 
> A simple jaunt through the Oxford English Dictionary (1979 edition) under
> "Lordship", definition 5: "the personality of a lord, esp. with possessive
> pronouns" shows references from 1493, 1480, 1550-3, 1593 (this one is
> Shakespeare, Henry VI), and 1613 (also Shakespeare, Henry VIII), followed by
> a host of post-period references. (I'll leave the actual quotations; looking
> them up can be an exercise for the student *g*)
> Checking under "Ladyship", definition 2: "the personality of a Lady", we
> find references to 1374 (Chaucer, no less), @1400, @1500, 1550, 1551, and
> 1600 (good master William S. again, As You Like It.)
> 
> As for the secondary argument ("It sounds Victorian"):
> ...Well, to compare, let's examine one of the favorite forms of address in
> the SCA: "Milord."
> Letting our fingers do the walking again (through the OED), produces a very
> short entry...one reference to 1596, and several in the *1800's*.
> Hmm.....If we're worried about "Victorian usage"; it sounds like we're
> focusing on the wrong form of address to me!
> 
> As to the current references from Society Corpura; I can only assume that
> they "dodged the bullet", by not making *any* choice.
> 
> So, there you are: History, etymology, *and* a diatribe, all rolled into
> one! Read, enjoy, and make your own decision what form to use.
> I hope it helped.
> 
> In Service, I remain
> Alden Pharamond
> Tempio, Ansteorra
> (WSA, CIM, CSM, former [and premier] Wakeforest Herald, former Regional
> Herald, and Olde Farte)
> 
> 
> 
>>So in finding myself recently with a vested interest in the
>>outcome of this question, I decided to search around in the
>>various and sundry governing documents that give approved and
>>alternate titles for the various ranks within the SCA.  In
>>perusing both the Award Constitutions and the Laws of Ansteorra,
>>as well as the Society Corpora, I find nothing that supports the
>>use of either "His/Her Lordship" or "Honorable Lord/Lady" for
>>receipents of honors bearing a Grant of Arms.
>>
>>In Ansteorra, the White Scarves, the Centurions and the Golden
>>Lancers have traditional titles that befit their specific orders,
>>but membership in the other GoA orders does not grant any title
>>or form of address save for that which is accounted to recipients
>>of a Grant of Arms.
>>
>>The only reference I found for this form of address is from the
>>Society Corpora, which gives the official title/address of a GoA
>>as "Lord/Lady."
>>
>>So my question is: where did the Honorable Lord/Lady and His/Her
>>Lordship come from, and under what authority save for tradition
>>are we using it?
>>
>>
>>Snorri Hallsson, CSM
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra mailing list
> Ansteorra at ansteorra.org
> http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra
> 