[Ansteorra] Ducal Prerogative

Sir Lyonel Oliver Grace sirlyonel at hotmail.com
Sat Nov 10 12:31:47 PST 2007

Salut cozyns,
I concur with Laszlo's analysis.
For anyone who still finds all of this confusing Don't other kingdoms have ducal prerogative? What's the controversy in ducal prerogative?), here's a bit of perspective:
First:  don't other kingdoms have ducal prerogative?  Yes. As Master Tivar noted, the original idea that gave birth to ducal prerogative was the belief that it is the duty of the Chivalry to regulate the Crown Lists. Every viable member of the Chivalry should compete to ensure that only the best candidates for the Crown make it through the competition. For Dukes, however, it was recognized that ruling twice is enough for anyone. They've done their time and can sit out the tourney with no ill-favor accrued.
Second: so what's different in Ansteorra? In Ansteorra the read on ducal prerogative has long been that a Duke can drop out of the tournament at any time with no ill-favor accrued. This way, the Dukes can still fulfill the role of every other able-bodied member of the Chivalry: they can add their skills to ensuring that the competition is hard-fought. The prerogative allows a Duke not only to bow out but to bow out when he believes he has been presented with an opponent worthy of the crown.
Third: then what's all the controversy? Largely imaginary, I'm sure. The fear is of great households. Every kingdom has one or more households that can boast more than one Duke. In some cases those households are perceived as dangerous for one reason or another (usually in that they all believe in some major aspect of ruling a kingdom that is at odds with other power centers in the kingdom). So, theoretically, if you have household with three Dukes, that household might be in a position to assist one of their members in reaching the finals. Does this happen? If so, I've not seen it. In this last crown tournament (according to the brackets posted by the Earl Marshal), Duke Jean Richard bowed out to Duke Patrick Michael, Duke Aaron bowed out to Sir Godwin, and Duke Miguel bowed out to Duke Patrick Michael. I believe Dukes Jean Richard and Patrick Michael share a household of origin, but I know that Duke Miguel and Duke Aaron have different roots. Hardly a conspiracy. 
En Lyonel 
Impedimentum via est 
(The obstacle is the path)

> From: morganbuchanan at hotmail.com> To: ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org> Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 06:38:07 -0600> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Ducal Perogative> > First, Laszlo's statement about the limit of when a Duke "may" withdraw is > inaccurate. In fact, in this very last crown, Duke Miguel withdrew in the > semi-finals. I believe that some crowns have requested that people make > their withdrawals prior to certain points in they tourney, and that of > course is the crown's prerogative. Further, such a law restricting > withdrawals in the semis or finals would circumvent SCA law that allows > anyone to refuse any fight at any time, with the caveat that it may cause a > loss.> > I believe that some kingdoms still have their version of ducal prerogative > which allows a duke to ENTER a crown list after it begins. This is usually > done to eliminate a fighter who is viewed as "not belonging" after the fact, > if I'm not mistaken. Of course in those instances the Crown ALSO has the > ability to say, "you're done" but for whatever reason in THOSE kingdoms, > they don't do it. I can't speculate.> > Make no mistake, in kingdoms that don't have our codified prerogative, > members of the royal family DO enter crown with the same intention as our... > to have some influence over the list, to ensure the quality of the list. > The only difference is that they "ducal out" by simply not blocking a shot > at the right time.> > Fighters withdraw due to injury or inability to continue all the time. > There are plenty of mechanisms with which to withdraw and not be seen as > dishonorable.> > So what I'm saying is that so much of this is a very semantic argument. We > just codify something to display it as an honor (This Duke believes so > strongly in me that he withdraws because he'd bend a knee to me as his > prince and crown) instead of forcing subterfuge.> > Just my thoughts.> > Kind regards,> Morgan> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "robert segrest" <aumbob at yahoo.com>> > > As far as technical issues, I believe that the difference between a duke's > > perogative and an ordinary fighters ability to withdraw during a list is > > not entirely based on honor. A duke may fight a round, soundly trounce > > his opponent and then 'ducal out' allowing said opponent to proceed. I > > believe that an ordinary fighter who withdrew after winning a round would > > simply be removed from the next round, without providing any benefit to > > the defeated opponent.> >> > It is also my understanding that nobody, including dukes, may withdraw in > > the semi-final and final rounds. So whatever influence the dukes may be > > able to exert is somewhat limited when it becomes most important. Any > > successful aspirant to the crown will have to defeat at least two > > opponents after all ducal perogatives have been exercised.> >> > I would love to hear from some of our older fighters/marshalls who may > > know more about the history and thinking that led to this unusual custom.> >> > Lord Fatthiopap Laszlo> > _______________________________________________> Ansteorra mailing list> Ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-ansteorra.org
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