[Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it

Sat May 21 17:07:10 PDT 2011

"It has been proposed that because we are all assumed to be nobility, 
that this validates our use of more open or democratic approaches."

I haven't seen that said. I _have_ seen it proposed that since we're all actually people in modern-day America, that this validates our use of more open or democratic approaches, especially in regards to things like financial decisions. Or are there actually folks out there who want to chuck our financial committees? :P

Saying that we should let the few decide for the many 'because that's the medieval way' is incredibly simplistic and completely ignores the fact that the SCA has a dichotomous system. We are both a medieval society and a modern community and we can't just shuck off the hard task of adhering to the standards of both.

Anyway, just to remind everyone, the people who are unhappy that financial decisions were made without widespread input are not cheapskates, malingerers, or honorless and the people who made this decision are not trying to remove liberties from the populace. We're all just Ansteorrans who want to go to Pennsic and pretend to be medieval for awhile, with the least amount of fuss, bother, and expense. :)

-R the O

"Thousands of candles can be lighted from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared."

--- On Sat, 5/21/11, Renee Pitcock <elwenaduialloth at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Renee Pitcock <elwenaduialloth at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it
To: "ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Date: Saturday, May 21, 2011, 6:33 PM

Technically speaking, we vote to elect people to make decisions for us.  We don't, after all, have a true democracy in this country.  Moreover, we're recreating a time when democracy wasn't used and when the common people didn't have a say, and we are specifically talking about kingdom camping lands, as opposed to land that is not allotted to a specific group.  It would be expected that people in a higher position than the common man would make these decisions.

It has been proposed that because we are all assumed to be nobility, that this validates our use of more open or democratic approaches.  Well, yes and no.  There's a heirarchy within nobility, both in history and in our group, and there are still chains of command and loyalties that come into play within that system.  In a camp the size of a kingdom, it is difficult to try to consult everyone on every detail and still manage to get everything arranged to general satisfaction in a reasonable amount of time.  democracy is highly consumptive of time, not to mention manpower.  Sometimes decisions have to be made unilaterally by those who understand the system. 

It is difficult to simply exist in a camp and not reap at least some benefit from the group.  Even if you don't use the water or utilize the communal trash bags, there is still a certain atmosphere that comes with camping with your own kingdom and its people.  But to make that atmosphere a positive, pleasant one, it make take the input of funds on everyone's part.

~Morina O'Donovan

From: Ian Dun Gillan <ian1550 at sbcglobal.net>
To: 'Renee Pitcock' <elwenaduialloth at yahoo.com>; "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 6:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it

Yes in the mundane world we pay taxes for service we do not necessarily use
but we get a choice, we get a vote to choose express our opinion if we want
those or not. In this instance it seems like there was no such option given
and thus the loss of liberty.

Ian

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-bounces+ian1550=sbcglobal.net at lists.ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-bounces+ian1550=sbcglobal.net at lists.ansteorra.org] On
Behalf Of Renee Pitcock
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 5:07 PM
To: Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it

Extending your metaphor into the mundane world, there are a number of people
whose tax dollars go to services such as schools that they may not now and
may never in the future employ.  People who have no children and who do not
intend to have children still put tax dollars into public schools.  They do
this for utilitarian purposes.  They are paying for a service that betters
the community as a whole, even if there is no direct benefit to themselves. 
Educating children produces learned, competent functioning members of
society in the future.  Educating children produces the future doctors,
nurses, dentists and other health care professionals that you visit on a
regular basis.  It produces the lawyers, politicians, lawmakers, and police
whose jobs it is to make, enforce, and uphold the laws and government system
of the nation.  Educating children also produces the plumbers, electricians,
mechanics, and other everyday technicians who keep the
various accourtements of modern life running smoothly.  Even if a person
has no children, he or she can benefit from paying for education through
taxes.  

Various members of the list have already detailed some of the services
provided through the payment of a camp fee.  These services seem largely to
encompass both a cleanliness aspect and a hospitality aspect, both of which
will provide benefits even to those who choose to remain self-sufficient. 
Keeping an entire camp clean, through the use of trash and water, benefits
everyone in the camp, and a number of people around the camp's perimeter. 
Staving off the gross factor is generally a pretty damn good idea for all.

Hospitality is another issue.  Contributing to the kingdom's hospitality
budget can benefit everyone for a number of reasons.  First, it generally
fosters a friendly, pleasant atmosphere in and around camp.  It also means
that individuals from the camp are more likely to be looked on favorably by
others.  Let's say, for instance, that the kingdom uses a portion of its
alloted hospitality money or money contributed by camp members to throw a
party or gathering of some sort and it goes well.  The next day, you
encounter a person from another kingdom who was at said gathering, and you
introduce yourself as Ansteorran.  If they had a good time, they may say
something to the effect of, "Oh yeah, I was at your camp last night.  You
guys sure know how to throw a great party," and the conversation continues
on a pleasant note.  Alternatively, members of a kingdom who is seen as
inhospitable or isolationist in some way will generally not be as well
received.  People may not know how to react around such people, and may be
distant towards them.  The name of our kingdom is a form of reputation for
all of us, and boosting that reputation can positvely affect us all.

In addition to promoting goodwill and boosting our own reputation,
hospitality can have a great effect on new people, people considering
leaving the group, or people who have just returned after an absence. 
Openness, care and concern shown towards people in these groups can do
wonders to make them want to stay and play with us.  If we do our own things
and don't show that kind of hospitality towards others, these people may
find it hard to integrate with us, or may question whether they can or
should stay and play.  Being friendly, even if it costs a small fee to do
it, is no bad thing.

In light of these sorts of benefits, I have a hard time wondering why $7 is
so much to ask to help the kingdom camp group run more smoothly and
pleasantly, but that's just my two cents.

~Morina O'Donovan

From: Ian Dun Gillan <ian1550 at sbcglobal.net>
To: "'Kingdom of Ansteorra - SCA, Inc.'" <ansteorra at lists.ansteorra.org>
Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2011 4:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra] Camp fee what to do about it

Greeting unto one and all,

The point of the ongoing argument is not one of cost but a matter of
liberties. The issue being that if you make absolutely anyone camping in
Ansteorra's lands pay the fee whether they use the services offered or not
then that is a loss of some of their liberties, something that we as
American's take pretty seriously. If you do charge everyone camping that fee
then you are taking away their right as a citizen of Ansteorra to camp in
the lands assigned by the event to their kingdom thus removing part of their
liberties. Those voicing against the camp charge are not actually against a
few to be charged for amenities that they plan to partake in...so long as
you partake of those services then if there is a fee you should pay it, the
people protesting want to be able to make use of the land allotted to them
as an Ansteorran but they do not want to make use of the services. The
simple solution is to only require the fee of those campers who partake in
the camp amenities. If you camp with Ansteorra and don't use their shower,
don't use their water, and don't eat their orange slices then you should not
have to pay.

Perhaps this example can help put it into perspective...everyone who attends
an event is suddenly required to pay a stabling fee for equine activities.
Some of those attending the event do not even own a horse, nor do they
attend or enjoy equine activities but because someone decided that a
stabling fee was necessary and it must be paid by anyone who came on site.
If you attend then you must pay so your options become go to the event or go
somewhere else...If you attended such an event how would you feel about
that? 

The solution is a simple one make the camp fee a cost for services just like
a food plan, and not for the use of the camping area itself. This way those
who provide such services for themselves within the confines of their
allotted space will not have to pay the fee, and those who do wish to use
the available services can do so by paying the fee.

Perhaps with such a simple solution we can stop arguing about it and get on
to some more enjoyable subjects.

In Service,
Ian

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