[Ansteorra-archery] Ansteorra-archery Digest, Vol 27, Issue 12
Glenn Long
debbnglenn at centurytel.net
Sun Aug 10 12:17:34 PDT 2008
Let me see if I get this right.
Ansteorra requires at least 1", but the new Society rules call for No
more than 1". So does that mean that if we are 1/8th" off in either
direction we fail either the Ansteorra rules or the Society rules? That
does not leave much room for error. No room at all in fact. I cannot
imagine that this is going to work very well. Every arrow that passes
here would likely fail at the War for being slightly over 1".
As far as the side foam tape. Are they saying that the additional foam
should wrap around the arrowhead?
Reinhardt Stahlhelm
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Subject: Ansteorra-archery Digest, Vol 27, Issue 12
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Today's Topics:
1. Combat Archery - New Society Marshallate Ruling (Eadric Anstapa)
2. Re: Combat Archery - New Society Marshallate Ruling
(Harry Bilings)
3. Re: Combat Archery - New Society Marshallate Ruling
(Donnchadh Beag mac Griogair)
4. Re: Combat Archery - New Society Marshallate Ruling
(Eadric Anstapa)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:58:27 -0500
From: Eadric Anstapa <eadric at scabrewer.com>
Subject: [Ansteorra-archery] Combat Archery - New Society Marshallate
Ruling
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra
<ansteorra-archery at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <489F1023.5030508 at scabrewer.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
As a Combat Archer unless you are using only Baldar Blunt's this
probably effects YOU. I don't know of any Ansteorran archers that are
already doing this. In essence it means ALL of our UHMW cored blunts
have to be reworked.
Note this is /*Effective Immediately*/. Your ammo will not pass
inspection until it meets these new requirements.
Yes, the cost in materials and more importantly time for a group like
mine that has thousands of pieces of ammo is staggering.
Regards,
-EA
============================================
The Ruling:
------------------------
Effective immediately by the Society Earl Marshal & the Deputy Society
Earl Marshal for Combat Archery, the following changes to equipment are
required due to repeated incidents of helm penetrations:
* Combat Archery ammunition may have at most 1" thick padding on the tip
after taping.
* All UHMW & Siloflex/Rubber Stopper ammunition must have a side wrap of
foam added that brings the total diameter of the blunt to at least 1.5"
after taping. This wrap must extend from the tip to at least 1/2" over
the UHMW or Siloflex itself.
* All fletches on any arrows, bolts, or thrown weapons can project no
further than 1/2" from the shaft, or must be 1.5" thick.
* NOTE: All Marshals need to be rigorous in their inspections of all
tips (arrows & thrusting) and mass weapons. Ensure that the foam is
firm, will not bend over, returns to shape when compressed, and can not
be easily pushed into a legal helm more than 1/2".
---------------------------
The Explanation:
For those that do not know, there were a couple of incidents of the
foam/tape of UHMW combat arrows touching the face/eyes of people at Gulf
Wars this year. There were more incidents at a West/AnTir war, and at
another event recently. Much discussion has therefore been going on at
Society Level about this potential issue ever since Gulf Wars.
At Pennsic in the Town Battle on Wednesday, there were 4 incidents of
foam/tape penetrating helms that were reported. Yes, 4 in one battle.
Two of them resulted in minor injury. One was a busted blood vessel in
an eye, the other resulted in a bruise (black eye). All of these
penetrations happened to be UHMW/RubberStopper style ammo. In one case,
the rubber stopper itself had penetrated a bit.
In all of these cases, the UHMW or Siloflex respectively did it's job
and didn't let any hard parts of the arrow enter the helm. But
obviously the force involved with just the foam/tape, from max poundage
bows at close range, is significant enough to be concerned about.
At Pennsic, when this happened, CA was canceled for the next battle
(Mountain Pass) that was scheduled for that day. Especially because
that battle had been scheduled to be face plate only so it didn't seem
to be a good idea at the moment.
The MiC Pennsic made a ruling that for Siloflex/Rubber ammo to be
allowed for the rest of pennsic that they would need to add a side
wrap. The Local Wal-Mart was bought out of Camp Mats, and much taping
happened that night so that archers could shoot the next day.
Later in the war, meetings were held since many Kingdom Earl Marshals
were in attendance, as well as myself and the Society Earl Marshal.
These issues were discussed, as well as the fact that Low Profile
Thrusting tips & Mass Weapons depending on their construction can be
forced into a helm. Also it was brought up that there was an incident
of a polearm entering a helm in the Woods Battle and contacting
someone's cheek.
After much discussion, the rulings above were developed. Basically,
we already have a rule that weapons should not be able to enter a helm
more than 1/2", and that people need to be constructing their weapons
such that this doesn't happen, and the marshals ensuring that weapons
are done this way.
Additionally the other rules were added to ammunition. This is
because ammo travels with such velocity that we need to be extra
vigilant to ensure that we do not cause any injury. The rules as
designed were done specifically so that they are easy RETROFITS.
Noone should need to remake any ammunition from scratch. Instead just
add a side wrap of foam overtop of existing ammo, and tape it down
good. To meet the letter of the law, a 1/8" wrap of foam will not be
sufficient, since after taping down, it will compress and be less than
1.5" in diameter. Therefore two layers of 1/8" foam, or a layer of
1/4" foam would need to be added and taped down well.
Note that this side wrap IS required, you cannot just use bigger
diameter UHMW or Siloflex. The reason is that by adding the sidewrap,
you are making the foam on the tip much stiffer, protecting the edges of
the UHMW, etc.
If archers have more than 1" of foam on the tip, it needs to be taped
down tighter, or a little bit cut off.
Also in general archers need to think about their arrow tips as
thrusting tips and building them 'solid' like you would a sword tip.
Using high quality dense foam, and/or using oversized foam and
compressing it as you tape it down so that it ends up a very firm tip
that doesn't compress much, especially circumferentially.
In Service,
Siegfried - Society Combat Archery Marshal
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Message: 2
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:25:20 -0500
From: Harry Bilings <humble_archer at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] Combat Archery - New Society
Marshallate Ruling
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra
<ansteorra-archery at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <BAY115-W78AC945E6EF21EF5866C984760 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Looks like it is a good thing that I have not modfied mine yet. They
would not have passed the new rules. I had only planed on adding 1/8" to
the sides.
I know where to get 1/8 " foam but where do you get 1/4" at? I think it
may be easer to use two wqrapes of 1/8" to do the job and may do a
better job of supporting the side of the foam head.
plachoya
As a Combat Archer unless you are using only Baldar Blunt's this
probably effects YOU. I don't know of any Ansteorran archers that are
already doing this. In essence it means ALL of our UHMW cored blunts
have to be reworked.Note this is Effective Immediately. Your ammo
will not pass inspection until it meets these new requirements.Yes, the
cost in materials and more importantly time for a group like mine that
has thousands of pieces of ammo is
staggering.Regards,-EA============================================The
Ruling:------------------------Effective immediately by the Society Earl
Marshal & the Deputy Society Earl Marshal for Combat Archery, the
following changes to equipment are required due to repeated incidents of
helm penetrations:* Combat Archery ammunition may have at most 1" thick
padding on the tip after taping.* All UHMW & Siloflex/Rubber Stopper
ammunition must have a side wrap of foam added that brings the total
diameter of the blunt to at least 1.5" after
taping. This wrap must extend from the tip to at least 1/2" over the
UHMW or Siloflex itself.* All fletches on any arrows, bolts, or thrown
weapons can project no further than 1/2" from the shaft, or must be 1.5"
thick.* NOTE: All Marshals need to be rigorous in their inspections of
all tips (arrows & thrusting) and mass weapons. Ensure that the foam is
firm, will not bend over, returns to shape when compressed, and can not
be easily pushed into a legal helm more than 1/2".
_________________________________________________________________
Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live.
http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGL
M_WLYIA_whichathlete_us
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:32:49 -0500
From: Donnchadh Beag mac Griogair <donnchadh at cornelius.norman.ok.us>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] Combat Archery - New Society
Marshallate Ruling
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra
<ansteorra-archery at lists.ansteorra.org>,
marshal at ansteorra.org,
archery_marshal at ansteorra.org
Message-ID: <489F2641.109 at cornelius.norman.ok.us>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
I see at least one potential problem:
According to the new rules (emphasis mine):
* Combat Archery ammunition may have at _/*most*/_ 1" thick padding on
the tip after taping.
According to Ansteorra's rules:
Ansteorra restriction: Shafted ammo shall use UHMW with 1? of resilient
padding.
Society standards call for a minimum of 1/2" padding which gives 1/2" of
variance. GulfWars conventions call for a minimum of 3/4" padding which
give 1/4" of variance. Current Ansteorran rules allow for NO variance.
All blunts would have to be EXACTLY 1".
I think we should either petition Society to increase the maximum
padding to 1 1/4" or to change our minimum padding to 3/4".
In Service,
Baron Donnchadh
Eadric Anstapa wrote:
> As a Combat Archer unless you are using only Baldar Blunt's this
> probably effects YOU. I don't know of any Ansteorran archers that are
> already doing this. In essence it means ALL of our UHMW cored blunts
> have to be reworked.
>
> Note this is /*Effective Immediately*/. Your ammo will not pass
> inspection until it meets these new requirements.
>
> Yes, the cost in materials and more importantly time for a group like
> mine that has thousands of pieces of ammo is staggering.
>
> Regards,
>
> -EA
>
>
> ============================================
> The Ruling:
>
> ------------------------
>
> Effective immediately by the Society Earl Marshal & the Deputy Society
> Earl Marshal for Combat Archery, the following changes to equipment
> are required due to repeated incidents of helm penetrations:
>
> * Combat Archery ammunition may have at most 1" thick padding on the
> tip after taping.
>
> * All UHMW & Siloflex/Rubber Stopper ammunition must have a side wrap
> of foam added that brings the total diameter of the blunt to at least
> 1.5" after taping. This wrap must extend from the tip to at least 1/2"
> over the UHMW or Siloflex itself.
>
> * All fletches on any arrows, bolts, or thrown weapons can project no
> further than 1/2" from the shaft, or must be 1.5" thick.
>
> * NOTE: All Marshals need to be rigorous in their inspections of all
> tips (arrows & thrusting) and mass weapons. Ensure that the foam is
> firm, will not bend over, returns to shape when compressed, and can
> not be easily pushed into a legal helm more than 1/2".
>
> ---------------------------
>
> The Explanation:
>
> For those that do not know, there were a couple of incidents of the
> foam/tape of UHMW combat arrows touching the face/eyes of people at
> Gulf Wars this year. There were more incidents at a West/AnTir war,
> and at another event recently. Much discussion has therefore been
> going on at Society Level about this potential issue ever since Gulf
Wars.
>
> At Pennsic in the Town Battle on Wednesday, there were 4 incidents of
> foam/tape penetrating helms that were reported. Yes, 4 in one battle.
> Two of them resulted in minor injury. One was a busted blood vessel in
> an eye, the other resulted in a bruise (black eye). All of these
> penetrations happened to be UHMW/RubberStopper style ammo. In one
> case, the rubber stopper itself had penetrated a bit.
>
> In all of these cases, the UHMW or Siloflex respectively did it's job
> and didn't let any hard parts of the arrow enter the helm. But
> obviously the force involved with just the foam/tape, from max
> poundage bows at close range, is significant enough to be concerned
about.
>
> At Pennsic, when this happened, CA was canceled for the next battle
> (Mountain Pass) that was scheduled for that day. Especially because
> that battle had been scheduled to be face plate only so it didn't seem
> to be a good idea at the moment.
>
> The MiC Pennsic made a ruling that for Siloflex/Rubber ammo to be
> allowed for the rest of pennsic that they would need to add a side
> wrap. The Local Wal-Mart was bought out of Camp Mats, and much taping
> happened that night so that archers could shoot the next day.
>
> Later in the war, meetings were held since many Kingdom Earl Marshals
> were in attendance, as well as myself and the Society Earl Marshal.
> These issues were discussed, as well as the fact that Low Profile
> Thrusting tips & Mass Weapons depending on their construction can be
> forced into a helm. Also it was brought up that there was an incident
> of a polearm entering a helm in the Woods Battle and contacting
> someone's cheek.
>
> After much discussion, the rulings above were developed. Basically, we
> already have a rule that weapons should not be able to enter a helm
> more than 1/2", and that people need to be constructing their weapons
> such that this doesn't happen, and the marshals ensuring that weapons
> are done this way.
>
> Additionally the other rules were added to ammunition. This is because
> ammo travels with such velocity that we need to be extra vigilant to
> ensure that we do not cause any injury. The rules as designed were
> done specifically so that they are easy RETROFITS.
>
> Noone should need to remake any ammunition from scratch. Instead just
> add a side wrap of foam overtop of existing ammo, and tape it down
> good. To meet the letter of the law, a 1/8" wrap of foam will not be
> sufficient, since after taping down, it will compress and be less than
> 1.5" in diameter. Therefore two layers of 1/8" foam, or a layer of
> 1/4" foam would need to be added and taped down well.
>
> Note that this side wrap IS required, you cannot just use bigger
> diameter UHMW or Siloflex. The reason is that by adding the sidewrap,
> you are making the foam on the tip much stiffer, protecting the edges
> of the UHMW, etc.
>
> If archers have more than 1" of foam on the tip, it needs to be taped
> down tighter, or a little bit cut off.
>
> Also in general archers need to think about their arrow tips as
> thrusting tips and building them 'solid' like you would a sword tip.
> Using high quality dense foam, and/or using oversized foam and
> compressing it as you tape it down so that it ends up a very firm tip
> that doesn't compress much, especially circumferentially.
>
> In Service,
> Siegfried - Society Combat Archery Marshal
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Ansteorra-archery mailing list
> Ansteorra-archery at lists.ansteorra.org
>
http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-archery-ansteorra.org
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:38:04 -0500
From: Eadric Anstapa <eadric at scabrewer.com>
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-archery] Combat Archery - New Society
Marshallate Ruling
To: Archery within the Kingdom of Ansteorra
<ansteorra-archery at lists.ansteorra.org>
Message-ID: <489F277C.2010903 at scabrewer.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
Donnchadh Beag mac Griogair wrote:
>
> I think we should either petition Society to increase the maximum
> padding to 1 1/4"
No going to happen. Too many worries that will allow too much foam to
enter the helm.
> or to change our minimum padding to 3/4".
>
I believe this is something we should look into. The Rapier folks will
need to decide if they think 3/4" is sufficient for CA.
-EA
------------------------------
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End of Ansteorra-archery Digest, Vol 27, Issue 12
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