[Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please post tothechirurgeon's list

Wed Nov 9 16:34:00 PST 2005

You know,

I really have to agree with Crandall on this one

Furthermore, I don’t care what ‘rank’ I hold in the Chirurgeon’s guild
 I
could be Apprentice Jester for all I care
 All I give a damn about, is
having equipment on hand, to do what I was trained to do, and making sure
that people know first response is available. If I’m trained to use Oxygen
and an AED, well then dang-it, if the guy is in need of it, I’m going to use
it and face the consequences later
. I’m not going to sit back and watch
someone die, because Corporate said so
 Maybe someone does need to remind
the legal committee about what happened at Gulf Wars

Jayme Dominguez del Valle

Shire of Seawinds, Ansteorra

Journeyman Chirurgeon

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+jpercer=gmail.com at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+jpercer=gmail.com at ansteorra.org] On
Behalf Of Crandall
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:18 AM
To: ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please post
tothechirurgeon's list

The BOD cannot tell me what I can or cannot bring to events. Whether it is a
level of knowledge or materials that save lives. 

Only legal considerations or site owners can state that certain items are
considered in bad taste or will get me in jail. And thus should not be
present. 

There are those in the Chirurgeonate who save lives. We are trained to
react. We will use the tools that are appropriate to the situation. We will
save lives. 

Their policy states: 

"This policy shall be supported by not allowing the
Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical equipment
such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers, defibrillators, etc."

(Their misunderstanding of the term: "advanced medical equipment" shows
their ignorance.) 

Fine with me. The Chirurgeon's office will not have them in their
possession. 

The BOD has not been trained in the Good Samaritan laws. 

They also state: 

"None of what is precluded above applies to what an
individual with advanced training may decide to do under his or her own
license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority over
personal supplies." 

Never will my personal supplies will be in the Chirurgeon's office
possession. 

The Chirgeonate attempted to use medieval terms to identify honors within
the system. Making an attempt at authenticity is required by that same BOD.
Heaven forbid that those who are Peers would feel threatened by our
bureauocracy. Now, "Good, Better, Best" as titles would imply more than we
want. 

I suggest the following: 

"Wanna Be" for those in training, both mundane and SCA procedures. 

"Got A Warrant" for those who their fellows figure are trained. 

"Atta Boy" for those who their fellows think they did really good for a long
time. 

Or along the same requirements:

Serf

Fleam

Ol' Bag

What I do want to happen is that the members of the misguided legal
committee and their litigious families please identify themselves so that I
know when I am treating them. 

Crandall, Chirurgeon, Olde Foole

"Carolle M. Cox" <hpockets at verizon.net> wrote:

I'm sorry.  What I see is an attempt by people who have no clue about first
aid, pre-hospital care, or, g--forbid, true emergency management to manage
and control people who do.

I'm a rather opinionated floozey, and I know it, but who cares at all what
'people outside the SCA' think about what we call ourselves or each other?
Gosh, if they're going to freak over 'master chirurgeon', what will they do
about 'King'?? 

This puts me in mind of a recent incident in which Chirurgeons of all
'stripes' responded to a possible heart attack call.  That man is alive,
wandering around SCA events today, because the responders applied every
skill, prayer, and bit of expertise they had, and EMS was alerted quickly.
Who on the BOD or anywhere else would like to go to that man's widow and
tell her that, yes, we did have EMTs and Paramedics on site with
medical-control permission to act; yes, we did have aspirin; but we're sorry
to report that we can only do basic first aid, and so her life-long partner
is dead?  Right. At that point, our Legal Committee would have a whole lot
more to worry about than 'master chirurgeon'!

However.  In time, this situation will get worked out.  Every silly idea we
as a Society have ever had has been worked out with the passage of time
(witness pickle barrels).  I, personally, will strip my kit of everything I
am trained to use that would lead me to overstep basic first aid, leave the
gold stripe on my baldric, and soldier on until things come to their senses.

May Hippocrates protect us all 

Gerita

DFWchinlovers at yahoogroups.com

www.japanesechinrescue.org <http://www.japanesechinrescue.org/> 

http://carollesknitting.blogspot.com <http://carollesknitting.blogspot.com/>

People are like stained glass windows.  They sparkle and shine when the sun
is out, but when darkness sets in, their beauty is revealed only if there is
a light from within. -- Elizabeth Kübler-Ross

-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org] On
Behalf Of richard hall
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:43 AM
To: chirurgeon at att.net; chirurgeon at sca.org; kc at sca.org;
chirurgeonate-ansteorra at yahoogroups.com; ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please post to
thechirurgeon's list

Ok.

    I can see where they are coming from, to an extent.  The BOD is all
about covering their ass.  You and I both know that lawsuits have not
happened at the rate that they COULD have happened.  A lot of that is due to
the waivers that are in place and due to the fact that the Chirurgeonate as
a whole has been good at keeping "treatment" to a minimum and by providing
good documentation.  But, I think that they need to realize that people will
sue for NOT giving treatment just as fast as for giving treatment.  The AED
issue is BS.  If airports, malls, police cars, etc. have them for "John Doe"
to use, why can't we?  They are virtually idiot proof.  Try to explain why
one was NOT used when available to a grieving spouse who just lost their
husband/wife to a massive MI that could have been treated with early defib.

    I can also see the logic (though I don't agree with it) behind the name
change.  In a way it does imply more training than others, even if we know
the difference.  But rarely does anyone we treat at events even know who is
apprentice/Journeyman/Master anyway!!  They just see the red baldric and
couldn't care the difference in the "racing stripes."

    And it's BULLSHIT about changing the CHIRURGEON GENERAL's name to
something else.  WHY?  Did somebody get jealous because our name is
different than everybody else's?  Jeez Louise.  

You're right.  Maybe I don't want to be KC after all.  And you can tell
Eleanor I said that!  

----- Original Message ----- 

From: richard <mailto:arkellvomcophus at yahoo.com>  hall 

To: xaraxene at comcast.net ; caley/penny E <mailto:medicfem at yahoo.com>  ; Sue
Delk <mailto:ladydds at verizon.net>  ; chrisl at vvm.com ; Carolle M. Cox
<mailto:hpockets at verizon.net>  

Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:02 PM

Subject: Fwd: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list

At this time this is FYI as the JKCs r refusing to put this out until we get
some answers that we can give to all. so this goes nowhere Yet!!!!!

Arkell

B Carlock <bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:

Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:31:01 -0800 (PST)
From: B Carlock <bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net>
To: kc at sca.org, "bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net" <bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net>,
Jim Carlock <j-carlock at att.net>, Galen Ockham <galen at chirurgeon.org>,
Richard Threlkeld <rjt at softwareinnovation.com>,
Therasia von Tux <no1home at onewest.net>
CC: 
Subject: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list

Hello to all KCs.  Ms. Cady, our Board Ombudsman, has sent this to me,
requesting it be sent out to all Chirurgeons.  I am sending it to you
verbatim, and please forward it to your kingdom lists in its entirety.  If
you have concerns, comments, questions, ideas, please contact me at
chirurgeon at sca.org .  Ms. Cady has also included her directors address.  

Thanks, 

Eleanor

SC

Unto the Chirurgeons of the SCA, greetings.

The following will come to you from the Society Chirurgeon's office, but
the Board wants to offer some explanation for the changes.

The structure of the Chirurgeon's office needs to be more in line with the
other offices of the SCA. The titles presently used are somewhat confusing
and inaccurate. For example, the term 'Chirurgeon General,' while clever,
is inconsistent with other Society officers' titles (such as Society
Marshal). It also implies authority over more than the basic first aid
that the SCA provides. Additionally, the titles of Apprentice, Journeyman
and Master have connotations of a level of skill that the Legal Committee
is concerned pose significant legal risk to the SCA. It would not be
unreasonable for people outside of the SCA to assume that a Master
Chirurgeon has a higher level of medical training than a Journeyman or
Apprentice, which is not necessarily the c! ! ! ase. Also, the term 'Master'
within the SCA usually indicates possession of a peerage-- confusion that
is not necessary. These are changes in name only. What the Society
Chirurgeon's office shall use for a new ranking system is to be
determined.

Remember that the SCA only provides first aid. Any advanced medical care
is not in the purview of the SCA and will not be performed as an official
function of any office of the SCA. Today, we live in a world with easy
access to advanced emergency medical care that did not exist when the SCA
started. The Chirurgeon's Handbook states the purpose of the Chirurgeons
clearly. We need to be careful not to promote the perception that the SCA
provides any care beyond what is required to earn a basic first aid
certification. This policy shall be supported by not allowing the
Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical equipment
such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers, defibrillators, etc.
The problem is not only in using these item, but in storing, maintaining,
cleaning and supplies for them. This is not allowed under the auspices of
the SCA, covered by insurance, or Good Samaritan protection as individuals
using them may not be trained or certified in their use. Having such items
present in the Chirurgeon's area of operations significantly increases our
legal risk and creates a perception that the SCA provides a higher level
of medical care than we are willing or able to provide.

The Board of Directors recognizes and applauds the volunteers who work
within the Chirurgeonate. You are skilled, well-meaning and dedicated
people. Many of you have advanced training and certification. The Board
appreciates that you donate your time and skills to make the SCA a safer
place to play. None of what is precluded above applies to what an
individual with advanced training may decide to do under his or her own
license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority over
personal supplies. However, we do have authority over the Chirurgeon's
office, and within the purview of the Chirurgeonate, the SCA only provides
basic first aid. If an injured participant requires more than basic first
aid, they must be referred to a medical facility. Chirurgeons who do more
than that do so at their own risk, and not as an officer of the SCA. All
of our large events should have paramedics and transport present.

The Society Chirurgeon is currently working on these changes and will pass
along further information. The Chirurgeon's Handbook will be revised to
reflect this. Again, these changes are being implemented out of necessity
to decrease risk to the SCA and its membership as a whole. This does not
diminish the Chirurgeons in any way; you are very important in making the
SCA events safer. This has been a long discussion with the Legal Committ! ee
and is not a capricious change.

Respectfully,

Dena Cady - Director, SCA, Inc.
Ombudsman to the Chirurgeon's office

_______________________________________________
DIRECTORS at SCA.ORG

From: "drcady" <drcady at cox.net>
To: <chirurgeon at sca.org>, <Bethcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Please post to the chirurgeon's list
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:06:32 -0700

Unto the Chiriurgeons of the SCA, greetings.

The following will come to you from the Society Chirurgeon's office, but
the Board wants to offer some explanation for the changes.

The structure of the Chirurgeon's office needs to be more in line with the
other offices of the SCA. The titles presently used are somewhat confusing
and inaccurate. For example, the term 'Chirurgeon General,' while clever,
is inconsistent with other Society officers' titles (such as Society
Marshal). It also implies authority over more than the basic first aid
that the SCA provides. Additionally, the titles of Apprentice, Journeyman
and Master have connotations of a level of skill that the Legal Committee
is concerned pose significant legal risk to the SCA. It would not be
unreasonable for people outside of the SCA to assume that a Master
Chirurgeon has a higher level of medical training than a Journeyman or
Apprentice, which is not necessarily the ! ! case. Also, the term 'Master'
within the SCA usually indicates possession of a peerage-- confusion that
is not necessary. These are changes in name only. What the Society
Chirurgeon's office shall use for a new ranking system is to be
determined.

Remember that the SCA only provides first aid. Any advanced medical care
is not in the purview of the SCA and will not be performed as an official
function of any office of the SCA. Today, we live in a world with easy
access to advanced emergency medical care that did not exist when the SCA
started. The Chirurgeon's Handbook states the purpose of the Chirurgeons
clearly. We need to be careful not to promote the perception that the SCA
provides any care beyond what is required to earn a basic first aid
certification. This policy shall be supported by not allowing the
Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical equipment
such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers, defibrillators, etc.
The problem is not only in using these item, but in storing, maintaining,
cleaning and supplies for them. This is not allowed under the auspices of
the SCA, covered by insurance, or Good Samaritan protection as individuals
using them may not be trained or certified in their use. Having such items
present in the Chirurgeon's area of operations significantly increases our
legal risk and creates a perception that the SCA provides a higher level
of medical care than we are willing or able to provide.

The Board of Directors recognizes and applauds the volunteers who work
within the Chirurgeonate. You are skilled, well-meaning and dedicated
people. Many of you have advanced training and certification. The Board
appreciates that you donate your time and skills to make the SCA a safer
place to play. None of what is precluded above applies to what an
individual with advanced training may decide to do under his or her own
license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority over
personal supplies. However, we do have authority over the Chirurgeon's
office, and within the purview of the Chirurgeonate, the SCA only provides
basic first aid. If an injured participant requires more than basic first
aid, they must be referred to a medical facility. Chirurgeons who do more
than that do so at their own risk, and not as an officer of the SCA. All
of our large events should have paramedics and transport present.

The Society Chirurgeon is currently working on these changes and will pass
along further information. The Chirurgeon's Handbook will be revised to
reflect this. Again, these changes are being implemented out of necessity
to decrease risk to the SCA and its membership as a whole. This does not
diminish the Chirurgeons in any way; you are very important in making the
SCA events safer. This has been a long discussion with the Legal Committ! ee
and is not a capricious change.

Respectfully,

Dena Cady - Director, SCA, Inc.
Ombudsman to the Chirurgeon's office

_______________________________________________
DIRECTORS <mailto:DIRECTORS at SCA.ORG> 

_______________________________________________
KC mailing list
KC at sca.org
http://www.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/kc

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