[Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please posttothechirurgeon's list
Vicki Marsh
xaraxene at comcast.net
Wed Nov 9 20:12:10 PST 2005
MessageXene here.
I'm glad you all have calmed down. I don't see where anything important has
changed except for one ombudsman's misunderstanding about what Standard and
Advanced First Aid is according to the law in the US. I don't see where she
has any understanding of international law concerning first aid, either.
The names and titles of ranks aren't important. I have had people (who
weren't Peers) ask me about the title "Master Chirurgeon". I sit in two
different peerage circles and haven't heard any problem with the title, but
if it puts anybody's knickers in a wad, then change the names. It doesn't
matter, because it just designates a level of expertise within the SCA.
Nothing more.
SCA funds (as far as I know) have not been used to buy anything in my kit,
unless it was to replace ace wraps, bandaids, or rubber gloves. That's about
it.
I've never received funds for a kit from any branch of the SCA.I donate my
work and my supplies to my friends in the SCA who need them. I keep OTCs in
my purse or my tent and when my friend or spouse needs one, I tell them
where they can find it and take it. I don't dispense pharmaceuticals.
What you need to be carefull with now is over-reacting. You have a very
level-headed ally, known as Caelin, who will work to calm the ruffled
feathers. He is doing a good job as the Deputy Society Chirurgeon (or
whatever it's called now).
Please.....
Don't stop what you are doing, don't resign from your office, and don't give
up.
If you act like hot-headed EMT wannabes, the detractors of the chirurgeonate
will just point and say "See... See... I told you they were a liability to
the SCA!".
We have proper chains of command in the SCA. Use them.
You have my permission to forward my part of the e-mail.
In Service to Crown and Kingdom.
Mistress Xene Theriane, OL, OP
Master Chirurgeon, ret.
Seneschal, Canton of Lindenwood
-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+xaraxene=comcast.net at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+xaraxene=comcast.net at ansteorra.org]On
Behalf Of Carolle M. Cox
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:48 PM
To: crandalltwo-scalists at yahoo.com; 'Kingdom of Ansteorra Chirurgeon
discussions'
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please
posttothechirurgeon's list
Thanks, Crandall. Your usual slightly sarcastic take on things has woken
me up.
Back into the bag go the things I am trained to use. This bag is my
personal property. Nothing within it belongs to the "Chirurgeon's Offfice",
whatever that is. Personally, I hope it's the outhouse, so we can all go
there when we have a need instead of 'holding it' for an entire List!
My training, every second of it, is also my own. It was paid for by me or
some generous friend who thought I'd be happy to receive it.
Worry not, Ansteorra. I don't give a rip What you call me; Master
Chirurgeon Gerita della Mara is just one of the appellations I have. I
happen to like this one; it humbles me that other Chirurgeons thought I had
earned it. Humble is always good. But if someone is uncomfortable with
"Master", then so be it. All they need to do is yell "help" or "chirurgeon"
and I'll be right there, bag and all.
If anyone needs supplies, I as a human being will either share mine or
work with those who can get donations, or head up a 'gang buy'. This has
absolutely no bearing on Gerita as an at-large warranted officer of the
Kingdom of Ansteorra in the Society for Creative Anachronism. It is Carolle;
just Carolle being what the gods decreed she should be.
Annalies is very right about one thing here: we, beginning at least with
HE Caelin, have worked very hard to give Ansteorran "wanna-bes" solid
training and encourage them to join us and work among us. With the efforts
of several Chirurgeons (is anyone taking notes for the next Master vote?),
among them Caelin (already a Master), Arkell (already a Master <smirk>),
Caley, Cynthia, some weird dude from Northern Region (also already a
Master), and a few others, our guild has grown. We are among the largest in
the known world - in fact, by now we may well be the largest. We work hard.
We give up countless hours of events and wars to make certain that everyone
is safe, and wounds are bound up before they get the chance to be infected.
We are among the best-trained, and with y'all always screeching for more
training, I don't see that changing any time soon.
We are Ansteorran Chirurgeons, we know our jobs, we do them well, and
nothing we do or don't do is any more likely to 'earn' a lawsuit than yonder
marshal on the field as long as we stick to our mandate.
I still hope this kerfluffle goes the way of pickle barrel armor. They
both have an odd aroma.
G
DFWchinlovers at yahoogroups.com
www.japanesechinrescue.org
http://carollesknitting.blogspot.com
People are like stained glass windows. They sparkle and shine when the
sun is out, but when darkness sets in, their beauty is revealed only if
there is a light from within. -- Elizabeth Kübler-Ross
-----Original Message-----
From: ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org] On
Behalf Of Crandall
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 10:18 AM
To: ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org
Subject: RE: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please post
tothechirurgeon's list
The BOD cannot tell me what I can or cannot bring to events. Whether it
is a level of knowledge or materials that save lives.
Only legal considerations or site owners can state that certain items
are considered in bad taste or will get me in jail. And thus should not be
present.
There are those in the Chirurgeonate who save lives. We are trained to
react. We will use the tools that are appropriate to the situation. We will
save lives.
Their policy states:
"This policy shall be supported by not allowing the
Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical equipment
such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers, defibrillators,
etc."
(Their misunderstanding of the term: "advanced medical equipment" shows
their ignorance.)
Fine with me. The Chirurgeon's office will not have them in their
possession.
The BOD has not been trained in the Good Samaritan laws.
They also state:
"None of what is precluded above applies to what an
individual with advanced training may decide to do under his or her own
license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority over
personal supplies."
Never will my personal supplies will be in the Chirurgeon's office
possession.
The Chirgeonate attempted to use medieval terms to identify honors
within the system. Making an attempt at authenticity is required by that
same BOD. Heaven forbid that those who are Peers would feel threatened by
our bureauocracy. Now, "Good, Better, Best" as titles would imply more than
we want.
I suggest the following:
"Wanna Be" for those in training, both mundane and SCA procedures.
"Got A Warrant" for those who their fellows figure are trained.
"Atta Boy" for those who their fellows think they did really good for a
long time.
Or along the same requirements:
Serf
Fleam
Ol' Bag
What I do want to happen is that the members of the misguided legal
committee and their litigious families please identify themselves so that I
know when I am treating them.
Crandall, Chirurgeon, Olde Foole
"Carolle M. Cox" <hpockets at verizon.net> wrote:
I'm sorry. What I see is an attempt by people who have no clue about
first aid, pre-hospital care, or, g--forbid, true emergency management to
manage and control people who do.
I'm a rather opinionated floozey, and I know it, but who cares at all
what 'people outside the SCA' think about what we call ourselves or each
other? Gosh, if they're going to freak over 'master chirurgeon', what will
they do about 'King'??
This puts me in mind of a recent incident in which Chirurgeons of all
'stripes' responded to a possible heart attack call. That man is alive,
wandering around SCA events today, because the responders applied every
skill, prayer, and bit of expertise they had, and EMS was alerted quickly.
Who on the BOD or anywhere else would like to go to that man's widow and
tell her that, yes, we did have EMTs and Paramedics on site with
medical-control permission to act; yes, we did have aspirin; but we're sorry
to report that we can only do basic first aid, and so her life-long partner
is dead? Right. At that point, our Legal Committee would have a whole lot
more to worry about than 'master chirurgeon'!
However. In time, this situation will get worked out. Every silly
idea we as a Society have ever had has been worked out with the passage of
time (witness pickle barrels). I, personally, will strip my kit of
everything I am trained to use that would lead me to overstep basic first
aid, leave the gold stripe on my baldric, and soldier on until things come
to their senses.
May Hippocrates protect us all
Gerita
DFWchinlovers at yahoogroups.com
www.japanesechinrescue.org
http://carollesknitting.blogspot.com
People are like stained glass windows. They sparkle and shine when
the sun is out, but when darkness sets in, their beauty is revealed only if
there is a light from within. -- Elizabeth Kübler-Ross
-----Original Message-----
From:
ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org
[mailto:ansteorra-chirurgeon-bounces+hpockets=verizon.net at ansteorra.org] On
Behalf Of richard hall
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 12:43 AM
To: chirurgeon at att.net; chirurgeon at sca.org; kc at sca.org;
chirurgeonate-ansteorra at yahoogroups.com; ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org
Subject: [Ansteorra-chirurgeon] Fwd: Re: [KC] Fwd: Please post to
thechirurgeon's list
Ok.
I can see where they are coming from, to an extent. The BOD
is all about covering their ass. You and I both know that lawsuits have not
happened at the rate that they COULD have happened. A lot of that is due to
the waivers that are in place and due to the fact that the Chirurgeonate as
a whole has been good at keeping "treatment" to a minimum and by providing
good documentation. But, I think that they need to realize that people will
sue for NOT giving treatment just as fast as for giving treatment. The AED
issue is BS. If airports, malls, police cars, etc. have them for "John Doe"
to use, why can't we? They are virtually idiot proof. Try to explain why
one was NOT used when available to a grieving spouse who just lost their
husband/wife to a massive MI that could have been treated with early defib.
I can also see the logic (though I don't agree with it) behind
the name change. In a way it does imply more training than others, even if
we know the difference. But rarely does anyone we treat at events even know
who is apprentice/Journeyman/Master anyway!! They just see the red baldric
and couldn't care the difference in the "racing stripes."
And it's BULLSHIT about changing the CHIRURGEON GENERAL's name
to something else. WHY? Did somebody get jealous because our name is
different than everybody else's? Jeez Louise.
You're right. Maybe I don't want to be KC after all. And you can
tell Eleanor I said that!
----- Original Message -----
From: richard hall
To: xaraxene at comcast.net ; caley/penny E ; Sue Delk ;
chrisl at vvm.com ; Carolle M. Cox
Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2005 2:02 PM
Subject: Fwd: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list
At this time this is FYI as the JKCs r refusing to put this out
until we get some answers that we can give to all. so this goes nowhere
Yet!!!!!
Arkell
B Carlock <bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2005 09:31:01 -0800 (PST)
From: B Carlock <bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net>
To: kc at sca.org, "bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net"
<bcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net>,
Jim Carlock <j-carlock at att.net>, Galen Ockham
<galen at chirurgeon.org>,
Richard Threlkeld <rjt at softwareinnovation.com>,
Therasia von Tux <no1home at onewest.net>
CC:
Subject: [KC] Fwd: Please post to the chirurgeon's list
Hello to all KCs. Ms. Cady, our Board Ombudsman, has sent
this to me, requesting it be sent out to all Chirurgeons. I am sending it
to you verbatim, and please forward it to your kingdom lists in its
entirety. If you have concerns, comments, questions, ideas, please contact
me at chirurgeon at sca.org . Ms. Cady has also included her directors
address.
Thanks,
Eleanor
SC
Unto the Chirurgeons of the SCA, greetings.
The following will come to you from the Society Chirurgeon's
office, but
the Board wants to offer some explanation for the changes.
The structure of the Chirurgeon's office needs to be more in
line with the
other offices of the SCA. The titles presently used are
somewhat confusing
and inaccurate. For example, the term 'Chirurgeon General,'
while clever,
is inconsistent with other Society officers' titles (such as
Society
Marshal). It also implies authority over more than the basic
first aid
that the SCA provides. Additionally, the titles of Apprentice,
Journeyman
and Master have connotations of a level of skill that the
Legal Committee
is concerned pose significant legal risk to the SCA. It would
not be
unreasonable for people outside of the SCA to assume that a
Master
Chirurgeon has a higher level of medical training than a
Journeyman or
Apprentice, which is not necessarily the c! ! ! ase. Also, the
term 'Master'
within the SCA usually indicates possession of a peerage--
confusion that
is not necessary. These are changes in name only. What the
Society
Chirurgeon's office shall use for a new ranking system is to
be
determined.
Remember that the SCA only provides first aid. Any advanced
medical care
is not in the purview of the SCA and will not be performed as
an official
function of any office of the SCA. Today, we live in a world
with easy
access to advanced emergency medical care that did not exist
when the SCA
started. The Chirurgeon's Handbook states the purpose of the
Chirurgeons
clearly. We need to be careful not to promote the perception
that the SCA
provides any care beyond what is required to earn a basic
first aid
certification. This policy shall be supported by not allowing
the
Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical
equipment
such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers,
defibrillators, etc.
The problem is not only in using these item, but in storing,
maintaining,
cleaning and supplies for them. This is not allowed under the
auspices of
the SCA, covered by insurance, or Good Samaritan protection as
individuals
using them may not be trained or certified in their use.
Having such items
present in the Chirurgeon's area of operations significantly
increases our
legal risk and creates a perception that the SCA provides a
higher level
of medical care than we are willing or able to provide.
The Board of Directors recognizes and applauds the volunteers
who work
within the Chirurgeonate. You are skilled, well-meaning and
dedicated
people. Many of you have advanced training and certification.
The Board
appreciates that you donate your time and skills to make the
SCA a safer
place to play. None of what is precluded above applies to what
an
individual with advanced training may decide to do under his
or her own
license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority
over
personal supplies. However, we do have authority over the
Chirurgeon's
office, and within the purview of the Chirurgeonate, the SCA
only provides
basic first aid. If an injured participant requires more than
basic first
aid, they must be referred to a medical facility. Chirurgeons
who do more
than that do so at their own risk, and not as an officer of
the SCA. All
of our large events should have paramedics and transport
present.
The Society Chirurgeon is currently working on these changes
and will pass
along further information. The Chirurgeon's Handbook will be
revised to
reflect this. Again, these changes are being implemented out
of necessity
to decrease risk to the SCA and its membership as a whole.
This does not
diminish the Chirurgeons in any way; you are very important in
making the
SCA events safer. This has been a long discussion with the
Legal Committ! ee
and is not a capricious change.
Respectfully,
Dena Cady - Director, SCA, Inc.
Ombudsman to the Chirurgeon's office
_______________________________________________
DIRECTORS at SCA.ORG
From: "drcady" <drcady at cox.net>
To: <chirurgeon at sca.org>, <Bethcarlock4 at sbcglobal.net>
Subject: Please post to the chirurgeon's list
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2005 18:06:32 -0700
Unto the Chiriurgeons of the SCA, greetings.
The following will come to you from the Society Chirurgeon's
office, but
the Board wants to offer some explanation for the changes.
The structure of the Chirurgeon's office needs to be more in
line with the
other offices of the SCA. The titles presently used are
somewhat confusing
and inaccurate. For example, the term 'Chirurgeon General,'
while clever,
is inconsistent with other Society officers' titles (such as
Society
Marshal). It also implies authority over more than the basic
first aid
that the SCA provides. Additionally, the titles of Apprentice,
Journeyman
and Master have connotations of a level of skill that the
Legal Committee
is concerned pose significant legal risk to the SCA. It would
not be
unreasonable for people outside of the SCA to assume that a
Master
Chirurgeon has a higher level of medical training than a
Journeyman or
Apprentice, which is not necessarily the ! ! case. Also, the
term 'Master'
within the SCA usually indicates possession of a peerage--
confusion that
is not necessary. These are changes in name only. What the
Society
Chirurgeon's office shall use for a new ranking system is to
be
determined.
Remember that the SCA only provides first aid. Any advanced
medical care
is not in the purview of the SCA and will not be performed as
an official
function of any office of the SCA. Today, we live in a world
with easy
access to advanced emergency medical care that did not exist
when the SCA
started. The Chirurgeon's Handbook states the purpose of the
Chirurgeons
clearly. We need to be careful not to promote the perception
that the SCA
provides any care beyond what is required to earn a basic
first aid
certification. This policy shall be supported by not allowing
the
Chirurgeon's office to have in its possession advanced medical
equipment
such as medications, IVs, oxygen tanks, nebulizers,
defibrillators, etc.
The problem is not only in using these item, but in storing,
maintaining,
cleaning and supplies for them. This is not allowed under the
auspices of
the SCA, covered by insurance, or Good Samaritan protection as
individuals
using them may not be trained or certified in their use.
Having such items
present in the Chirurgeon's area of operations significantly
increases our
legal risk and creates a perception that the SCA provides a
higher level
of medical care than we are willing or able to provide.
The Board of Directors recognizes and applauds the volunteers
who work
within the Chirurgeonate. You are skilled, well-meaning and
dedicated
people. Many of you have advanced training and certification.
The Board
appreciates that you donate your time and skills to make the
SCA a safer
place to play. None of what is precluded above applies to what
an
individual with advanced training may decide to do under his
or her own
license and with their own equipment. The SCA has no authority
over
personal supplies. However, we do have authority over the
Chirurgeon's
office, and within the purview of the Chirurgeonate, the SCA
only provides
basic first aid. If an injured participant requires more than
basic first
aid, they must be referred to a medical facility. Chirurgeons
who do more
than that do so at their own risk, and not as an officer of
the SCA. All
of our large events should have paramedics and transport
present.
The Society Chirurgeon is currently working on these changes
and will pass
along further information. The Chirurgeon's Handbook will be
revised to
reflect this. Again, these changes are being implemented out
of necessity
to decrease risk to the SCA and its membership as a whole.
This does not
diminish the Chirurgeons in any way; you are very important in
making the
SCA events safer. This has been a long discussion with the
Legal Committ! ee
and is not a capricious change.
Respectfully,
Dena Cady - Director, SCA, Inc.
Ombudsman to the Chirurgeon's office
_______________________________________________
DIRECTORS
_______________________________________________
KC mailing list
KC at sca.org
http://www.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
KC mailing list
KC at sca.org
http://www.sca.org/mailman/listinfo/kc
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
_______________________________________________
Ansteorra-chirurgeon mailing list
Ansteorra-chirurgeon at ansteorra.org
http://www.ansteorra.org/mailman/listinfo/ansteorra-chirurgeon
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: /pipermail/ansteorra-chirurgeon-ansteorra.org/attachments/20051109/a40b96da/attachment.html
More information about the Ansteorra-chirurgeon
mailing list