[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

[Gene Hosey]

Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok? and if a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at each event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less flexible than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when old? 

I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually about the swords themselves   

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for rapiers.
> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better order
> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree of
> shavedness to get several data points.
> So yeah. Science.
> 
> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has such
> things on his mind.
> 
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a piece of
>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the center and
>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove the
>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable difference
>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>> 
>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any metal
>> can be used in any way.
>>> 
>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and would
>> need to be approved separately.
>>> 
>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be treated in
>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>> 
>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for flexibility,
>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>> 
>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>> 
>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl Marshal
>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact him for
>> more details."
>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>> 
>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has approved
>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of course,
>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>> or
>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>> 
>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>> 
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think bear
>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal or
>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be used
>> in the
>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially
>> reduce
>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.).
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>> allowing it
>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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