[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 10:15:17 PST 2016

OMG people, quit being obvious dicks about this.

The question presented was:
Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then allowing
it to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
or
Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?

Are both of these answers no? Then say so with your data to support the
opinion. (even just saying-seems sufficiently flexible and I haven't seen
the rawhide become rigid).
Is one of these answers yes (or no data to say otherwise)? Then that means
it's against rules and it needs to go through the experimental process
(like all the other things that have been passed for Kingdom)

(unless I misinterpreted, in which I apologize)
Kajira

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
wrote:

> So first you're going to need to determine a baseline: what is the standard
> to which "passing" is measured. Then you determine your tolerances:
> presumably a minimum level of flex is important, but do you also want to
> set a maximum level of flex? I think it would be most fair to set
> flexibility as a function of blade length so as to not punish people who
> use super short sticks at the expense of those who use longer ones. Then, I
> think you're going to need to set up a test booth at every event where
> people can get their sticks tested to see if they pass. To be fair, you
> should have everyone get their weapons tested, not just rawhide - fair is
> fair, and just 'cause tape has presumed to be sufficiently flexible doesn't
> mean it always is. It shouldn't be hard to make a few sets of testing
> apparatus, but you're probably going to have to have people take off their
> baskets before testing, so the sticks can be bolted down properly. However,
> so everyone doesn't have to get their stuff tested every time, you can get
> some sort of sticker to indicate that this weapon passed the test. I
> personally like scratch-and-sniff, but hello kitty ones are pretty
> ubiquitous too. The important thing should be that it doesn't blend into
> the weapon colors too easily - bright colors and cartoons are good for
> this.
>
> -- Andreas
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>
> > Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
> > flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok? and
> if
> > a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
> each
> > event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
> flexible
> > than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
> old?
> >
> > I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
> > about the swords themselves
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
> > rapiers.
> > > Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
> > order
> > > would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
> > > You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree
> of
> > > shavedness to get several data points.
> > > So yeah. Science.
> > >
> > > -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has such
> > > things on his mind.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a piece
> > of
> > >> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the center
> > and
> > >> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
> the
> > >> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
> > difference
> > >> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
> > >>
> > >> Karl Thorgeirsson
> > >> Sent from my iPad
> > >>
> > >>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
> metal
> > >> can be used in any way.
> > >>>
> > >>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and would
> > >> need to be approved separately.
> > >>>
> > >>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be treated
> in
> > >> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
> > >>>
> > >>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
> > flexibility,
> > >> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
> > >> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
> > >>>
> > >>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
> > >>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
> > >>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
> > >> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> > >>>>
> > >>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
> > >> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> > >>>>
> > >>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
> > >>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
> Marshal
> > >> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
> him
> > for
> > >> more details."
> > >>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
> > approved
> > >> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
> > >> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
> > course,
> > >> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
> > >>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
> > >>>>> or
> > >>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
> > >>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
> > >>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
> > >> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
> > bear
> > >>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal
> or
> > >>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
> used
> > >> in the
> > >>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
> > >>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will substantially
> > >> reduce
> > >>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass, etc.).
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
> > >> allowing it
> > >>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> or
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> Thoughts,
> > >>>>>> Jean Paul
> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
> > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
> > >>
> > http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
> > >>>
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> > >>>
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> > >>
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> > > Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> > > « Qui quærit, invenit »
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>
>
> --
> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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