[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 10:21:41 PST 2016

(meh...sorry for my angry response.  just getting old people giving
opinions on how they would do it or being a smart ass instead of providing
productive input to either get this issue of the table or into the
experimental arena)

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:15 PM Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
wrote:

> OMG people, quit being obvious dicks about this.
>
> The question presented was:
>
> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then allowing
> it to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
> or
> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>
> Are both of these answers no? Then say so with your data to support the
> opinion. (even just saying-seems sufficiently flexible and I haven't seen
> the rawhide become rigid).
> Is one of these answers yes (or no data to say otherwise)? Then that means
> it's against rules and it needs to go through the experimental process
> (like all the other things that have been passed for Kingdom)
>
> (unless I misinterpreted, in which I apologize)
> Kajira
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> So first you're going to need to determine a baseline: what is the
>> standard
>> to which "passing" is measured. Then you determine your tolerances:
>> presumably a minimum level of flex is important, but do you also want to
>> set a maximum level of flex? I think it would be most fair to set
>> flexibility as a function of blade length so as to not punish people who
>> use super short sticks at the expense of those who use longer ones. Then,
>> I
>> think you're going to need to set up a test booth at every event where
>> people can get their sticks tested to see if they pass. To be fair, you
>> should have everyone get their weapons tested, not just rawhide - fair is
>> fair, and just 'cause tape has presumed to be sufficiently flexible
>> doesn't
>> mean it always is. It shouldn't be hard to make a few sets of testing
>> apparatus, but you're probably going to have to have people take off their
>> baskets before testing, so the sticks can be bolted down properly.
>> However,
>> so everyone doesn't have to get their stuff tested every time, you can get
>> some sort of sticker to indicate that this weapon passed the test. I
>> personally like scratch-and-sniff, but hello kitty ones are pretty
>> ubiquitous too. The important thing should be that it doesn't blend into
>> the weapon colors too easily - bright colors and cartoons are good for
>> this.
>>
>> -- Andreas
>>
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
>> > flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok? and
>> if
>> > a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
>> each
>> > event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
>> flexible
>> > than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
>> old?
>> >
>> > I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
>> > about the swords themselves
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> > > On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>> > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>> > rapiers.
>> > > Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>> > order
>> > > would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>> > > You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree
>> of
>> > > shavedness to get several data points.
>> > > So yeah. Science.
>> > >
>> > > -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
>> such
>> > > things on his mind.
>> > >
>> > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
>> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
>> piece
>> > of
>> > >> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
>> center
>> > and
>> > >> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
>> the
>> > >> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>> > difference
>> > >> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>> > >>
>> > >> Karl Thorgeirsson
>> > >> Sent from my iPad
>> > >>
>> > >>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
>> metal
>> > >> can be used in any way.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
>> would
>> > >> need to be approved separately.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
>> treated in
>> > >> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>> > >>>
>> > >>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>> > flexibility,
>> > >> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>> > >> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>> > >>>
>> > >>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>> > >>>
>> > >>>
>> > >>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>> > >>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>> > >>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>> > >> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>> > >> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> > >>>>
>> > >>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
>> wrote:
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>> > >>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
>> Marshal
>> > >> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
>> him
>> > for
>> > >> more details."
>> > >>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>> > approved
>> > >> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>> > >> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>> > course,
>> > >> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>> > >>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>> > >>>>> or
>> > >>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>> > >>>>>
>> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
>> > >>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>> > >>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>> > >>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>> > >> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>> > bear
>> > >>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal
>> or
>> > >>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
>> used
>> > >> in the
>> > >>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>> > >>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
>> substantially
>> > >> reduce
>> > >>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
>> etc.).
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>> > >> allowing it
>> > >>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> or
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>> > >>>>>>
>> > >>>>>> Thoughts,
>> > >>>>>> Jean Paul
>> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>> > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> > >>
>> >
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>> > >>>
>> > >>> _______________________________________________
>> > >>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>> > >>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> > >>>
>> >
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>> > >> _______________________________________________
>> > >> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>> > >> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> > >>
>> >
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>> > > Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>> > > « Qui quærit, invenit »
>> > > _______________________________________________
>> > > Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>> > > Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> > >
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>> > Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> >
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
>> _______________________________________________
>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>>
>