[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 10:33:00 PST 2016

lol-you are bad

On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:31 PM Craig Carter <slotshot at sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

> My dogs think rawhide is delicious.  They made that determination without
> physiometric engineering data.  Stupid dogs.
> Dra...Rabbit
>
>       From: Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
>  To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>  Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 12:21 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>
> (meh...sorry for my angry response.  just getting old people giving
> opinions on how they would do it or being a smart ass instead of providing
> productive input to either get this issue of the table or into the
> experimental arena)
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:15 PM Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > OMG people, quit being obvious dicks about this.
> >
> > The question presented was:
> >
> > Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then allowing
> > it to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
> > or
> > Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
> >
> > Are both of these answers no? Then say so with your data to support the
> > opinion. (even just saying-seems sufficiently flexible and I haven't seen
> > the rawhide become rigid).
> > Is one of these answers yes (or no data to say otherwise)? Then that
> means
> > it's against rules and it needs to go through the experimental process
> > (like all the other things that have been passed for Kingdom)
> >
> > (unless I misinterpreted, in which I apologize)
> > Kajira
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >> So first you're going to need to determine a baseline: what is the
> >> standard
> >> to which "passing" is measured. Then you determine your tolerances:
> >> presumably a minimum level of flex is important, but do you also want to
> >> set a maximum level of flex? I think it would be most fair to set
> >> flexibility as a function of blade length so as to not punish people who
> >> use super short sticks at the expense of those who use longer ones.
> Then,
> >> I
> >> think you're going to need to set up a test booth at every event where
> >> people can get their sticks tested to see if they pass. To be fair, you
> >> should have everyone get their weapons tested, not just rawhide - fair
> is
> >> fair, and just 'cause tape has presumed to be sufficiently flexible
> >> doesn't
> >> mean it always is. It shouldn't be hard to make a few sets of testing
> >> apparatus, but you're probably going to have to have people take off
> their
> >> baskets before testing, so the sticks can be bolted down properly.
> >> However,
> >> so everyone doesn't have to get their stuff tested every time, you can
> get
> >> some sort of sticker to indicate that this weapon passed the test. I
> >> personally like scratch-and-sniff, but hello kitty ones are pretty
> >> ubiquitous too. The important thing should be that it doesn't blend into
> >> the weapon colors too easily - bright colors and cartoons are good for
> >> this.
> >>
> >> -- Andreas
> >>
> >> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
> wrote:
> >>
> >> > Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
> >> > flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok?
> and
> >> if
> >> > a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
> >> each
> >> > event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
> >> flexible
> >> > than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
> >> old?
> >> >
> >> > I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
> >> > about the swords themselves
> >> >
> >> > Sent from my iPhone
> >> >
> >> > > On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
> >> > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
> >> > rapiers.
> >> > > Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
> >> > order
> >> > > would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
> >> > > You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and
> degree
> >> of
> >> > > shavedness to get several data points.
> >> > > So yeah. Science.
> >> > >
> >> > > -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
> >> such
> >> > > things on his mind.
> >> > >
> >> > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
> >> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > >> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
> >> piece
> >> > of
> >> > >> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
> >> center
> >> > and
> >> > >> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
> >> the
> >> > >> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
> >> > difference
> >> > >> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Karl Thorgeirsson
> >> > >> Sent from my iPad
> >> > >>
> >> > >>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
> >> metal
> >> > >> can be used in any way.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
> >> would
> >> > >> need to be approved separately.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
> >> treated in
> >> > >> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
> >> > flexibility,
> >> > >> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal
> has
> >> > >> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
> >> > >>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
> >> > >>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all
> Ansteorran
> >> > >> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
> >> > >>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
> >> > >> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>> Sent from my iPhone
> >> > >>>>
> >> > >>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
> >> > >>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
> >> Marshal
> >> > >> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
> >> him
> >> > for
> >> > >> more details."
> >> > >>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
> >> > approved
> >> > >> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done
> it?
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
> >> > >> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
> >> > course,
> >> > >> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
> >> > >>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
> >> > >>>>> or
> >> > >>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
> >> > >>>>>
> >> > >>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >> > >>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
> >> > >>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
> >> > >>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
> >> > >> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
> >> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I
> think
> >> > bear
> >> > >>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no
> metal
> >> or
> >> > >>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
> >> used
> >> > >> in the
> >> > >>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
> >> > >>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
> >> substantially
> >> > >> reduce
> >> > >>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
> >> etc.).
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
> >> > >> allowing it
> >> > >>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> or
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
> >> > >>>>>>
> >> > >>>>>> Thoughts,
> >> > >>>>>> Jean Paul
> >> > >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
> >> > >>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
> >> > >>
> >> >
> >>
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
> >> > >>>
> >> > >>> _______________________________________________
> >> > >>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
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> >> > >>>
> >> >
> >>
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> >> > >>
> >> >
> >>
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > --
> >> > > Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> >> > > Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> >> > > « Qui quærit, invenit »
> >> > > _______________________________________________
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> >> > > Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
> >> > >
> >>
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> >> > _______________________________________________
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> >> >
> >>
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> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
> >> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
> >> « Qui quærit, invenit »
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
> >> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
> >>
> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
> >>
> >
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