[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Ysfael ysfael at aol.com
Thu Feb 25 10:38:15 PST 2016 

So my tuppence. I was the guy that first told Avaloc, King of an tir, that his weapons were not legal. They had curled up edges that were sharp enough to draw blood with simple pressure, so the idea that they would swing that at someone was right out. 
Last year at Grand Baronials I asked Creppin about his swords, found them to be safe, and was in fact hit a number of times by them. 
In my opinion, it comes down to "don't be a dick ".  The rule had not been written yet for our field that cannot be abused.  That's why we have marshals and inspections. 

Pax,
Ysfael. 

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Craig Carter <slotshot at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> My dogs think rawhide is delicious.  They made that determination without physiometric engineering data.  Stupid dogs.
> Dra...Rabbit
> 
>      From: Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> 
> (meh...sorry for my angry response.  just getting old people giving
> opinions on how they would do it or being a smart ass instead of providing
> productive input to either get this issue of the table or into the
> experimental arena)
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:15 PM Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> OMG people, quit being obvious dicks about this.
>> 
>> The question presented was:
>> 
>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then allowing
>> it to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>> or
>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>> 
>> Are both of these answers no? Then say so with your data to support the
>> opinion. (even just saying-seems sufficiently flexible and I haven't seen
>> the rawhide become rigid).
>> Is one of these answers yes (or no data to say otherwise)? Then that means
>> it's against rules and it needs to go through the experimental process
>> (like all the other things that have been passed for Kingdom)
>> 
>> (unless I misinterpreted, in which I apologize)
>> Kajira
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> So first you're going to need to determine a baseline: what is the
>>> standard
>>> to which "passing" is measured. Then you determine your tolerances:
>>> presumably a minimum level of flex is important, but do you also want to
>>> set a maximum level of flex? I think it would be most fair to set
>>> flexibility as a function of blade length so as to not punish people who
>>> use super short sticks at the expense of those who use longer ones. Then,
>>> I
>>> think you're going to need to set up a test booth at every event where
>>> people can get their sticks tested to see if they pass. To be fair, you
>>> should have everyone get their weapons tested, not just rawhide - fair is
>>> fair, and just 'cause tape has presumed to be sufficiently flexible
>>> doesn't
>>> mean it always is. It shouldn't be hard to make a few sets of testing
>>> apparatus, but you're probably going to have to have people take off their
>>> baskets before testing, so the sticks can be bolted down properly.
>>> However,
>>> so everyone doesn't have to get their stuff tested every time, you can get
>>> some sort of sticker to indicate that this weapon passed the test. I
>>> personally like scratch-and-sniff, but hello kitty ones are pretty
>>> ubiquitous too. The important thing should be that it doesn't blend into
>>> the weapon colors too easily - bright colors and cartoons are good for
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> -- Andreas
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
>>>> flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok? and
>>> if
>>>> a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
>>> each
>>>> event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
>>> flexible
>>>> than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
>>> old?
>>>> 
>>>> I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
>>>> about the swords themselves
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>>>> rapiers.
>>>>> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>>>> order
>>>>> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>>>>> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree
>>> of
>>>>> shavedness to get several data points.
>>>>> So yeah. Science.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
>>> such
>>>>> things on his mind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
>>> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
>>> piece
>>>> of
>>>>>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
>>> center
>>>> and
>>>>>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
>>> the
>>>>>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>>>> difference
>>>>>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
>>> metal
>>>>>> can be used in any way.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
>>> would
>>>>>> need to be approved separately.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
>>> treated in
>>>>>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>>>> flexibility,
>>>>>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>>>>>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>>>>>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>>>>>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
>>> Marshal
>>>>>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
>>> him
>>>> for
>>>>>> more details."
>>>>>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>>>> approved
>>>>>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>>>>>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>>>> course,
>>>>>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>>>>>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>>>> bear
>>>>>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal
>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
>>> used
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
>>> substantially
>>>>>> reduce
>>>>>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
>>> etc.).
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>>>>>> allowing it
>>>>>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
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>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
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