[Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords

Thu Feb 25 10:40:34 PST 2016

Meh. Clarifying. Told Avaloc that ys inspection point at GW some years ago ... it went up the chain of command. That's what I meant by "first"

Pax,
Tom

> On Feb 25, 2016, at 12:28 PM, Craig Carter <slotshot at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> My dogs think rawhide is delicious.  They made that determination without physiometric engineering data.  Stupid dogs.
> Dra...Rabbit
> 
>      From: Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org> 
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2016 12:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
> 
> (meh...sorry for my angry response.  just getting old people giving
> opinions on how they would do it or being a smart ass instead of providing
> productive input to either get this issue of the table or into the
> experimental arena)
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:15 PM Kajira Camber <kajiracamber at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> 
>> OMG people, quit being obvious dicks about this.
>> 
>> The question presented was:
>> 
>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then allowing
>> it to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>> or
>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>> 
>> Are both of these answers no? Then say so with your data to support the
>> opinion. (even just saying-seems sufficiently flexible and I haven't seen
>> the rawhide become rigid).
>> Is one of these answers yes (or no data to say otherwise)? Then that means
>> it's against rules and it needs to go through the experimental process
>> (like all the other things that have been passed for Kingdom)
>> 
>> (unless I misinterpreted, in which I apologize)
>> Kajira
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 12:02 PM Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> So first you're going to need to determine a baseline: what is the
>>> standard
>>> to which "passing" is measured. Then you determine your tolerances:
>>> presumably a minimum level of flex is important, but do you also want to
>>> set a maximum level of flex? I think it would be most fair to set
>>> flexibility as a function of blade length so as to not punish people who
>>> use super short sticks at the expense of those who use longer ones. Then,
>>> I
>>> think you're going to need to set up a test booth at every event where
>>> people can get their sticks tested to see if they pass. To be fair, you
>>> should have everyone get their weapons tested, not just rawhide - fair is
>>> fair, and just 'cause tape has presumed to be sufficiently flexible
>>> doesn't
>>> mean it always is. It shouldn't be hard to make a few sets of testing
>>> apparatus, but you're probably going to have to have people take off their
>>> baskets before testing, so the sticks can be bolted down properly.
>>> However,
>>> so everyone doesn't have to get their stuff tested every time, you can get
>>> some sort of sticker to indicate that this weapon passed the test. I
>>> personally like scratch-and-sniff, but hello kitty ones are pretty
>>> ubiquitous too. The important thing should be that it doesn't blend into
>>> the weapon colors too easily - bright colors and cartoons are good for
>>> this.
>>> 
>>> -- Andreas
>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 4:55 AM, Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Once you have done your tests then what? as in what degree of loss of
>>>> flexibility is ok and what degree of loss of flexibility is not ok? and
>>> if
>>>> a certain level of flexibility is not ok do we now test every sword at
>>> each
>>>> event to ensure it has the proper flexibility? old swords are less
>>> flexible
>>>> than new swords so do we start dating the time made to pull them when
>>> old?
>>>> 
>>>> I think this is more about who is using the swords than it is actually
>>>> about the swords themselves
>>>> 
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>>>> On Feb 25, 2016, at 2:39 AM, Andreas von Meißen <scamiz at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> A better test would be a cantilever beam flex test, like used for
>>>> rapiers.
>>>>> Also, as tape leaves a residue and doesn't come off easily, a better
>>>> order
>>>>> would be 1) bare, 2) rawhide, 3) tape.
>>>>> You'd also need to do several sticks of a range of lengths and degree
>>> of
>>>>> shavedness to get several data points.
>>>>> So yeah. Science.
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- Andreas, who is grading structural dynamics lab reports and has
>>> such
>>>>> things on his mind.
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 11:25 PM, Chuck Kaun <
>>> jack_a_lope31 at hotmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Instead of arguing about this, someone do an experiment.  Take a
>>> piece
>>>> of
>>>>>> rattan, suspend it from its ends with a weight hanging from the
>>> center
>>>> and
>>>>>> measure its flex from straight.  Wrap it in tape and repeat, remove
>>> the
>>>>>> tape then repeat again with leather.  If there is no appreciable
>>>> difference
>>>>>> between tape and leather, I don't see the problem.  SCIENCE!
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Karl Thorgeirsson
>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 18:28, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Yes, and metal has been approved for hilts. That doesn't mean any
>>> metal
>>>>>> can be used in any way.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Rawhide and regular leather have different characteristics, and
>>> would
>>>>>> need to be approved separately.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> In any event, the rules also state that "Rattan shall not be
>>> treated in
>>>>>> any way that will substantially reduce its flexibility."
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If somebody has tested rattan shrink-wrapped in rawhide for
>>>> flexibility,
>>>>>> all we need is the results of that test. Or if some Earl Marshal has
>>>>>> approved them, all we need is evidence of it.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Gene Hosey <genehosey at icloud.com>
>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 6:18 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Jay Rudin <rudin at ev1.net>, Discussion list for all Ansteorran
>>>>>> marshals <ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> IT IS LEATHER, LEATHER WAS APPROVED IN SWORDS BY SOCIETY BEFORE I
>>>>>> STARTED TWENTY YEARS AGO
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On Feb 24, 2016, at 6:15 PM, Jay Rudin <rudin at peoplepc.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> There are only two possible answers to this question:
>>>>>>>>> "Yes, they were approved for use in Ansteorra by former Earl
>>> Marshal
>>>>>> X, or for general SCA use by Society Earl Marshal Y. Please contact
>>> him
>>>> for
>>>>>> more details."
>>>>>>>>> "No, they have not been approved for use in Ansteorra."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> If no specific named Earl Marshal or Society Earl Marshal has
>>>> approved
>>>>>> them, , then they haven't been approved. Who else could have done it?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> As to flexibility: I haven't tested two swords made from similar
>>>>>> rattan, one covered with rawhide and one not covered. Therefore, of
>>>> course,
>>>>>> I have no answer. Similarly, anybody else's answer must be either:
>>>>>>>>> "I don't know; I haven't tested them."
>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>> "Here are the methods of my test, and here are the results."
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Robin of Gilwell / Jay Rudin
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: Earl Marshal <kingdom at marshal.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Feb 24, 2016 4:19 PM
>>>>>>>>>> To: Discussion list for all Ansteorran marshals <
>>>>>> ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org>
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-marshals] Rawhide swords
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> from the Earl Marshals' perspective, there are two rules I think
>>>> bear
>>>>>>>>>> discussion (entire section included below):
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> 1. With the exception of the hilts, guards and pommels, no metal
>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> ****non-approved rigid, granular****, or liquid material may be
>>> used
>>>>>> in the
>>>>>>>>>> construction of single or two-handed weapons including spears.
>>>>>>>>>> 11. Rattan shall not be treated in any way that will
>>> substantially
>>>>>> reduce
>>>>>>>>>> its flexibility (e.g., treated with wax, resin, fiberglass,
>>> etc.).
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> So therein lies my real queries.
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Does wetting down rawhide, wrapping it around a sword, and then
>>>>>> allowing it
>>>>>>>>>> to shrink and harden "substantially reduce it's flexibility"?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> or
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Is rawhide a non-approved rigid material?
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> Thoughts,
>>>>>>>>>> Jean Paul
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
>>>>>>> 
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>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Andrew R. Mizener / Don Andreas von Meißen
>>> Rowel Pursuivant, Kingdom of Ansteorra
>>> « Qui quærit, invenit »
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Ansteorra-marshals at lists.ansteorra.org
>>> http://lists.ansteorra.org/listinfo.cgi/ansteorra-marshals-ansteorra.org
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