[Ansteorra-missile] Rules Clairifications Questions(Very Long)

[Eadric Anstapa]

Greetings Greylond,

Thank you for taking the time to get further clarification.

First, there are no missile combat updated rules for Ansteorra.  We are
working on them now.  Unfortunately the nature of the game is that or rules
and the SCA rules are constantly changing.  It seems like as soo nas there is
a new Society Earl Marshal there a new rules that we have to change and
adhere to.  It is a constant struggle to stay up-to-date.

Bottom line is that you always look ay the SCA-wide rules, and then look at
our latest published rules, and take whichever is the MOST strict.  We can
opt to be more strict that the corporate rules but not less.  Our Ansteorran
rules for our Missile combattants are more strict that what is required at
the Society level.

First,  we have no such thing as a "Light" combattant in Ansteorra.
A "Light" combattant is someone who is not fully armored.  All particpants on
an Ansteorran Armored Combat field are fully armored and therefore we are
what the SCA would call "Heavy" combattants.  Even our Non-Contact
Particpants are what the rest of the SCA would call "Heavy" because they are
required to be fully armored.  Bottom line, any mention of "Light" armored
troops in the SCA rules doesn't apply to us because we dont allow that here.
In the SCA rules where it discusses armor requirements and says says "In
combat situations where light weapons are used exclusively" it might lead yo
uto beleive there could be lighter armor requirements.  However, the only way
you have such a battle is in something like an "Archer's Only Battle" like we
havve at Gulf War.

There are a few exceptions where "heavy" combattants on the field are not
required to  be fully armored.  The Society Missile Combat rules specifically
state that Archers, and Javlineers may wear a Archers Gauntlet on a single
hand.  For archers this is the hand that is used to draw the bow and for
Javalineers this is the hand that is used to throw the arrow.  The other hand
must have be fully armored.  The Society Combat Archery Marshal has clarified
that both hands for a crossbowmen are considered string hands used to draw
the bow and therefore crossbowmen may wear two archers gauntlets or half-
gauntlets.  No such exception is granted for other misc missile troops such
has those using misc hand thrown weapons or mechanically launched missiles
(slings stones).

Last year at Gulf War there were throwing axes being used on the field.  Some
crossbowmen (on the Trimaran side) ran over an picked up throwing axes off
the field (they can be gleaned) and started throwing them again. (this was
during the Ravine Battle).  These crossbowmen were wearing half-gauntlets.
The topic came up that day in Marshals Court  after the battle and it was
made clear by the Society Earl Marshal that such Misc Missile Troops were
required to be wearing full gauntlets and the the archers gauntlet rule only
applied to archers and Javalineers (I have no idea why Javalineers get this
exception).


Now, as far as the Ansteorran rules are concerned...

Our Particpants Handbook does not indicate in the section covering Non-
Contact Particpation (Section 8)  that Non-Contact Particpants are allowed to
be anything but fully armored.  There is no mention at all that Non-Contact
Combattants can be any less armored than anyone else on the field. In fact it
indicates that they must be fully armored where it says in Section
8.B.1  "All Armored Non−Contact personnel shall be armored with, at least,
the minimum standard armor appropriate for the field they are participating
on."


Our Missile Combat rules (Section 6 of the participants hanbook)  also
indicate that missile troops should be fully armored with the exeption of
archers. 6.1.B says "All Combat Archers shall be armored according to regular
armor standards for whichever type of combat they are engaging in (Chivalric
or Rapier).  1. Chivalric combat archers shall be required a minimum of an
Archers  Gauntlet (or equivalent) on the off hand and gauntlet on the bow
hand."

The Ansteorran rules do not indicate that Javalineers, slingers, or anyone
else using a misc. missile weapon are allowed to wear anything other than
full gauntlets.  That provision is only applied specifically to archers,
(including crossbowmen) and seige engineers.

The Primary reason for allowing Archers to wear Archers Gauntlets is so that
that there is not a danger presented by full gautlets  cutting the strings of
bows and crossbows.  It is not for the comfort of the archers (or else we
would also allow them to use one on the bow hand).

There is even good safety arguement for using Archers Gauntlets or LEATHER
half-gauntlets instead of metal half gauntlets.  This past weekend at 3Kings
Lord Iaen more was wearing metal half gauntlets.  With a brand new string
never before taken into battle, he made it through only two battles before
the edges of those metal half-gauntlets had sawed a third of the way through
his crossbow string.

I apologize that the rules are not as clear as they could be.  I also
apologize that the rules are out of date.  I am working on both of these and
correcting these is one of my top priorities.

I also apologize that you were mis-informed at the start of the battle or any
time before that.  I discussed it between battles with the Earl Marshal and
he admitted that he was in error and freely admits that he is not as familiar
with the rules governing missile combat as he should be and that he why he
leaves such rulings up to me.  The Earl MArshal also informed me that he had
said that he had stated that if the rules allowed slingers to use those
gauntlets then they were OK but that he would prefer the combattant to be
wearing something more.

It is important to remember that the SCA rules provide a framework and all
kingdoms build on that framework.  Some kingdoms require more armor, others
less. Some kingsoms allow fiberglass spears and unpadded glaives, others do
not. Some kingdoms allow 1000 IP crosbows and 50# bows and others do not.
Some allow wooden shafted arrows, others only allow golf tubes.  Some kingdom
allow "Light" archers, Ansteorra does not.   When you go to an InterKingdom
event you must adhere first adhere to the Armor and Weapons standards of the
Kingdiom where you are authorized.  If the war rules are more stringent then
they are piled on top of your own kingdoms rules but can not take away from
you kingdom rules.  It is also important to rmember that in battle wou can
switch from being a Seige Engineer, to an Slinger, then from an Slinger to an
Archer, then from a Archer to a Spearman, etc. and at each point the hand
protection you are required to me wearing will change.  If you we wish to
change weapons during battle we must plan ahead accordingly.


What I will commit to is this.  I will discuss this with the other Kingdom
Marshals of the Known World and the Society Missile Combat Marshal.  Perhaps
we can drive a change and clarification at the Society level.  If we can,
then we will look into incorporating any changes into our revised Ansteorran
Missile Combat rules.

Onc again, my apolofies for any confision and I hope that I have not just
succeded in confusing things more.

In Service,

--
Lord Eadric Anstapa
Kingdom Archery Marshal, Ansteorra
eadric at scabrewer.com




Greylond Aston <greylondaston at yahoo.com> said:

> Hello, I'm glad that this new list was opened up has I
> have some questions regarding rules clairifications.
>
> I have some questions about a ruling at the Three
> Kings Melee from last Saturday. There were a couple of
> things that happened that were all inter-related to
> the issue and areas where we were just plain in the
> wrong. Those issues not dealing with my confusion over
> rules have been dealt with and I'd like to apologize
> to anyone involved for any hard feelings coming out of
> what was otherwise a very fun weekend.
>
> First for any who aren't familar with the situation
> allow me to set it up. Everything that follows is from
> my point of view as I understood it at the time. If
> I'm mistaken or misunderstood about anything then I
> apologize and would appreciate the necessary
> correction.
>
> There were two of us on the field carrying
> experimental Staff Slings. The weapons were
> experimental due to being longer than the standard
> staff sling. The slingers were Torryn Seven Stiches
> and myself. The actual report on the experimental
> weapons is being sent to the Kingdom Earl Marshall and
> Kingdom Archery Marshall. It will also be made
> availible to all via a webpage soon.
>
> The actual rules clairifications that this message
> deals with is with the Armor requirement rules and not
> the experimental weapons.
>
> Torryn and myself were previously only authorized
> under the older "White Diamond" non-contact rules as
> Siege Crewman. We both have been on the battlefield as
> Non-Contact Siege Crewmen so we are familar with the
> Armor Requirements for Non-Contact Siege. I was
> recently authorized as a Non-Contact Combat Archer and
> Slings with the new Red Pheon rules. Torryn was
> trained and authorized with the Staff Sling and
> briefed on the new Red Pheon rules. Our battle plans
> for employing the slings were as follows, I was to use
> the Sling as long as tactically possible and switch to
> a bow when needed. Torryn would only use the Sling in
> situations when her siege weapon(Lothair's
> Assenbrusier) was unavailible.
>
> I'm familar with the newer Ansteorran Siege armor
> rules under which a Non-Contact Siege Crewman is
> allowed to wear half-gauntlets. I have looked at the
> Participents Handbook that is availible to me(the one
> on the Ansteorra website) and I am unable to find the
> rules allowing half-gauntlets for Non-Contact Siege
> Crew but I've been told by more than one Authorizing
> Siege Marshall that it is legal. Torryn was armored as
> a Non-Contact Siege Crewman since that was going to be
> her primary role.
>
> Since I was intending to be on the field as a
> Non-Contact Combat Archer I had a half-gauntlet on my
> right hand and a full one on my Bow-hand.
>
> Since Ansteorra recently changed the Non-Contact to
> Red Pheons to match Society InterKingdom Standards and
> we were employing a weapon that we had never used on
> the battlefield, I went back over the Participent's
> handbook again. The references to Combat Archers
> throughout the rules were a little confusing to me as
> sometimes it seems to be refering specifically to ALL
> missle weapon users and sometimes to only those using
> Bows and Crossbows. Going through the rules I found
> very little specific rules govering Armored
> Non-Contact Participents and some of the ones that I
> did find seemed(at least to me) to be contradicted by
> the newer Non-Contact Siege Crew rules that had be
> taught to me. Also, it was hard for me to find
> specific armor rules for Non-Contact Missle Users who
> weren't using a Bow(or Crossbow). The one place that I
> did find very specific rules governing Non-Contact
> Missle Users(Non-BowCrossbow) was in the SCA Missile
> Combat Plus Supplement(found on the SEM webpage at
> http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/archery/index.html
> ) which states in part on page 2;
>
> DEFINITIONS
> 1. Light Weapons:
> Projectile weapons including, but not limited to, bows
> and arrows, crossbows and bolts,
> slings and stones or bullets, javelins, darts, and
> throwing axes. Other weapons in this
> class, including knives and siege engines, exist and
> have been used.
>
>
> And on Page 5 of the same document
>
> Non-Contact Armor Requirements:
> 1. In combat situations where light weapons are used
> exclusively, the minimum requirement is a fencing
> mask. The mask or helm must cover the front and sides
> of the head, and be fastened in such a manner as to
> prevent it from coming off or being
> significantly dislodged during normal use. In
> addition, the back of the head must be
> covered with heavy padding, at a minimum.
> A barred or visor slotted helm of 18 gauge metal,
> which otherwise meets the minimum
> SCA construction standards, is acceptable. A helm
> without legal face bars or slots shall
> have all openings covered with well-secured perforated
> metal, chain mail, or stout wire
> mesh with openings of no more than 1/4 inch (soldered
> or woven). Window screen or
> galvanized hardware cloth is not acceptable.
> Shatterproof plastic such as Lexan, of a
> minimum 1/8 inch thickness, may also be used.
> If chain mail is used, the links must be hard
> tempered, welded, soldered, or otherwise
> strengthened to avoid opening under impact.
>
> 2. If non-contact missile users are to be on the field
> during mixed combat, they must wear
> a helm which meets the minimum SCA construction
> standards, except that it may be
> made of 18 gauge steel. It must be padded adequately
> to protect against an
> unintentional blow. However, if the helm resembles a
> standard heavy combat helm it
> must be made of 16 gauge or heavier steel. The helm
> shall be marked with 4 inch or
> taller red pheons of the Interkingdom Non-Contact
> symbol.
>
> 3. Puncture- and thrust-resistant padding for the back
> of the head, the throat, and the
> neck is required. Tournament combat helms and neck
> armor are acceptable equivalents.
>
> 4. Kidney and groin armor meeting minimum SCA tourney
> standards is required.
>
> 5. A minimum of leather gloves shall be worn on the
> hands.
>
> 6. It is required that shoes or boots be worn on the
> feet.
>
> 7. Protection for the knees of resilient material is
> required.
>
> Note: that the rule that I am concerned with is Point
> 5.
>
>  Before the battle the Kingdom Earl Marshall gave us
> permission to us the Staff slings with Half-Gauntlets.
> Partway through the first battle our army commander
> had called for more of to us, anyone who was
> authorized to do so, to switch to Bows if we could do
> so due to our side losing most of our archers that we
> started with, so I dropped my sling and switched to my
> bow. That left Torryn as the only Slinger on the
> field. There were a couple of different issues to come
> up but the one that I'm concerned with in this email
> message is the armor one. We were told that Torryn
> couldn't be using a Staff Sling with Half-Gauntlets.
> We tried to explain that the Kingdom Earl Marshall
> gave us permission to do so and we were told that
> Society Rules didn't allow it which confused me
> because as I read the Society Rules Non-Contact Missle
> Users can use Leather Gloves as the . Not wanting to
> debate the issue on the field and developing an armor
> problem just after the first battle I sat the next
> battle out( I also sat out to fix a problem that was
> raised with our sling stones, but as I said that is
> another issue and that was corrected before the ammo
> was used again) Torryn, apparently, was still not very
> clear on the issue and started the next battle with
> what we thought was Society legal armor for a
> Non-Contact Participent. She told to not use the Staff
> Sling so she stepped out of the second battle and
> after a break she came back during the Fort Battle as
> a Non-Contact Siege Crewman only(her Staff Sling
> stayed off of the field for the rest of the day). Due
> to the issues raised I attempted to use a Staff Sling
> with a borrowed full gauntlet but it wasn't designed
> to be used to pick up Sling Stones so I switched to a
> Bow for the rest of the day so that we could get on
> with the melee and discuss this in the proper forum.
>
> I have gone back and re-read the rulebooks that I
> re-downloaded today (yesterday was spent with HL
> Ironwyrm's computer issue) and I find myself still in
> a state of confusion. So before I get back on the
> field I'd like to ask for clairifications of the rules
> governing Non-Contact(Red Pheon) Missle Users(Archers
> and those who use weapons other than Bows/Crossbows)
> in use in Ansteorra. If there are updated versions of
> the Rules out there could someone point me to them?
> Please don't email them to me as my email box is near
> the limit and a large attachment would shut it down. I
> can provide another email address that can receive
> large attachments if needed.
>
> Thank you for taking the time to read through this
> long monster of an email.
>
>
> YIS
>
> Greylond Aston