[Ansteorra-missile] [Fwd: [SCA-MissileCombat] Thoughts on Istvan'sInjury]

[Bob Dewart]

The Bozo took his helmet off while still on the field??

My, my, but the heard does need to be thin out a bit.

Gilli
Shoot more arrows.  You're bound to hit something.
----- Original Message -----
From: <meggiddo at netzero.net>
To: <ansteorra-missile at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 7:23 PM
Subject: [Ansteorra-missile] [Fwd: [SCA-MissileCombat] Thoughts on
Istvan'sInjury]


> Greetings.
>
> Since no one else is posting or forwarding this to the Ansteorra-Missile
> list. I decided to do so.  I do not intend to forward everything, and am
> sure that there are some individuals who are on other lists have already
> seen this set of "threads".
>
> Nor am I unfeeling nor uncaring for this individual's injury and do so
> hope that he fully recovers with a minimum of issues related to it.
>
> This email and the "Huge" number (>45 todate) of responses to it have
> been winging their way onto the SCA-MissileCombat list.  It concerns an
> eye injury to Istvan Toth (Doug Toth) from the Middle Kingdom.
>
> If anyone wants to read all the threads concerning this injury, then go
> to SCA-MissileCombat list and do so.
>
> Summary of those e-mails follow:
> 1st - this injury was NOT a helmet penetration. Istvan Toth (Doug Toth)
> had removed his helmet to watch a portion of a bridge battle.  He was
> still within the boundaries of the battlefield and the battle was still
> going on.
>
> 2nd - The distance or rather the location that Istvan Toth (Doug Toth)
> was at is NOT truly know.  This included Istvan Toth (Doug Toth)
> himself, since he stated that he was guessing just where he was at.
>
> The below is a SMALL portion from one of those e-mails responding back
> to original:
> "The fact remains that by his (Istvan) own admission he was on the
> battlefield, closer than 20 yards to the fighting, and he had is helm
> off with no additional eye protection."
>
> 3rd - Others, including both sides have placed him closer to where he
> stated he was at in the below message.  See above or read the second
> paragraph of Istvan's e-mail below.
>
> 4th - Tessa the Huntress, DSMCA (Deputy Society Marshal Combat Archery,
> responds to Istvan Toth (Doug Toth) with the information that was
> reported to her and the SEM concerning this incident. Her message will
> be the second that I will forward.
>
> 5th - The arrow in question was NOT a wood not a fiberglass shaft combat
> arrow. It is what is known as a:  Siloflex arrow, with an Omarad style
> blunt.  I believe the bow was 40 lbs.
>
> Everything was legal, the bow, the combat arrow, the blunt, with the
> only thing being the individual did not have eye protection and was
> still on the field.
>
> I have cut and paste a portion of the original e-mail from HL Eadric
> Anstapa, our Kingdom Archery Marshal:
>
> Siloflex arrow, with an Omarad style blunt, out of a heavy bow.
>
> Siloflex arrow shafts are the NOT like golf tube shafts.
>
> They are made from 100PSI straight siloflex and it is rigid and does not
> bend or crumple like a golf tube would.  In fact siloflex is more stiff
> than a 1/4" fiberglass or wooden arrow and therefore does not absorb as
> much energy on impact as a shaft that would bend.  More energy is
> transferred to the target.
>
> Siloflex is the HEAVIEST shaft that is allowed in the SCA and weighs
> about 1.72 ounces per foot. 1/4" fiberglass rod weighs about 0.72 ounces
> per foot and the great big heavy fiberglass from fishing arrows and
> electric fences posts that some people use weights only 1.37 oz a ft.
> Heavier missiles not only have more energy to transfer but also have
> more inertia and therefore typically transfer more of their energy into
> their target.
>
> Omarad style blunts are nothing like being shot with a tennis ball
> blunt.  They are made from a #6.5 gum rubber lab stopper (essentially no
> compression or progressive give) with only 1/2" of padding put on the
> front of them.  They are only 1 5/16" in diameter.  A tennis ball would
> have been 2.5" in diameter and if properly punctured/drilled would have
> had not only twice the surface area striking the target but would have
> had 2.5" of progressive resistant give.  Once again this arrow transfers
> way more energy to it's target.
>
> Heavier arrows means more energy and stiffer shafts with smaller
> diameter blunts with less compression means more of that energy is
> transferred to the target.
>
> There is a reason why we have not approved siloflex shafts and Omarad
> blunts
> in Ansteorra.  As Sir Randall is aware I have been saying for well over
> a year now that I feel this combination out of a heavy bow offers an
> unacceptable risk of injury (there have also been cracked ribs from
> these things).
>
> The Middle Kingdom is from what I can tell about the worst for the
> fighter's
> having the attitude of "If the arrow doesn't hit as good as a sword I am
> not
> going to call it.".  As a matter of fact that is precisely what Sir
> Omarad (the man who designed the blunt and a DEM from that kingdom) told
> me at this past Gulf War when he was reminded that Ansteorra, Trimaris,
> and Meridies had no "sufficient force" rules for our missile weapons.
>
> They got themselves in the arms race where fighters stopped
> acknowledging hits from arrows and required them to hit harder and
> harder so the archers just got heavier blows and harder hitting blunts.
> Something like this was bound to happen.
>
> End of HL Eadric Anstapa, our Kingdom Archery Marshal, message.
>
>
> Michael Fray
> Unit Combat Archer for the Condottieri
>
>
>
> "Carroll, Michael (Facilities)" wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone seen this yet?
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > Michael of Northwood
> > AEthelmearc
> >
> > *************************************************
> > Subject: Istvan Injury Report
> > July 23, 2003
> >
> > Greetings all.
> >
> > This is a follow up report on the combat arrow that hit Sgt. Istvan Toth
on June 7th, 2003 at North Oaken War Maneuvers.   I know a lot about this
since I am Istvan Toth.
> >
> > To sum up...I was standing in the backfield of a bridge battle at the
latter part of the day.  My best guess is that I was 40 to 50 feet from one
end of the bridge, at about 45° from one corner.   I am not sure how long
the bridge was...by the way...if anybody has a different idea of these
distances please step forward, I was not measuring distance - I was watching
somebody pull victims off of the bridge with a great axe.
> >
> > I was not wearing my helm as I was in the process of quitting the field
and thought I was at a safe distance.
> >
> > According Eric Ericson the Scout, the arrow that hit me missed all
intervening participants and struck me square in the right eye.    I was
checked by Eric Ericson (who is also an EMT basic) on site.   Then I was
taken to the Cleveland Medical Center where a CAT scan showed a fracture to
the right orbit floor (below the eye, also called a "blowout") and of the
maxillary sinus with much nasty swelling and soft tissue damage.
> >
> > On June 12, 2003 I saw an ENT (Dr. Agostino) the delay being that the
swelling had to go down to a point where an examination could be done.
Other than the bones healing perhaps 1/8" off things looked good and I could
have had surgery for that had I wished but I preferred not to if it was not
absolutely necessary.    Dr. Agostino and later Dr. Gabrielle,
Ophthalmologist, (seen on June 24th)  both said that if any blurring of
vision or other vision irregularities showed up, to immediately have myself
seen.   They said the bones should heal in about 6 weeks.  The
ophthalmologist saw no obvious retinal damage at the time.
> >
> > On July 12 I attended Warriors & Warlords.  The concern was an
aggravation of the fractures.   I experienced no ill effects and fought very
well.
> >
> > On July 14, while driving to the dentist, the vision in my right eye
went blurry.    I made the next day for Wed. July 16th.  The ophthalmologist
said he thought it was retinal detachment and immediately made an appt. with
Dr. Lee, a retina & vitreous specialist.  On Thursday morning Dr. Lee did a
special examination to determine the extent of the injury etc. and scheduled
surgery for Friday.  The retinal detachment was 50%.  I was rushed into
surgery (look it up and cringe - you have to be awake for this folks!).
The surgery was actually three procedures, a Vitrectomy, Pneumatic
Retinopexy, and the application of a Scleral Buckle.  In layman's terms the
eye was drained and a gas bubble put in, a silicon "scleral buckle" was
placed around the eyeball to remain there permanently, and using lasers etc.
the scar tissue and tears were repaired.
> >
> > At this time, 5 days post-op, there is no way of telling how things will
go but generally they look good.  However, the Dr. was clear in letting me
know that my sight in the eye will not be what it was and there is no
knowing how much sight I will get back.  There is a chance of re-detachment
among other things.
> >
> > I am off work for a month and have to maintain a face-down position for
two weeks post-op.  It will be 3 to 6 months before anything can be
determined as to what amount of sight I'll have etc.    It has been
mentioned that I may not be able to fight again...I'll cross that bridge
when I come to it.
> >
> > Did my fighting at Warriors and Warlords cause this?  I think that, at
most, it accelerated it.   Apparently a little bleeding in the eye from an
injury can be absorbed by the eye, but a lot of bleeding causes problems
that can eventually lead  to retinal detachment.  After the injury I had a
lot of blood in my eye.   Whether I fought at Warriors and Warlords or two
weeks later at Simple Day, or at Pennsic, the retinal detachment would have
happened sooner or later as a result of the original impact injury.
> >
> > The power and construction of combat arrows has increased greatly to get
people to acknowledge them, but they are blunts and it will always be a
problem - that is why real arrows have points!  Arrows were used in real war
to really kill - not in the tournament style melee that we do.  This could
have happened to any marshal or non-combatant near the field (non-combatant
could be a royal observer you know).
> >
> > If I can fight again I will steer clear of the melee field for a long
time - and nothing at the size or level of Pennsic, and never with combat
archery.   It adds nothing to the game for me and may cost me a lot.
> >
> > Istvan Toth (Doug Toth)
> > P.S.   Please feel free to forward this to anyone you wish.
> >
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