[Ansteorra-rapier] Advisory Roll (longish)

Chris Backus cbackus at peakonline.com
Mon Jul 16 16:21:26 PDT 2001

Thanks for not taking offense - I was kidding, but I often come across
as too mean.  I think it's because I'm around a kind of teasing/hazing
kidding all day and I'm just used to people having thick skins.
People in the SCA do not often have thick skins when it comes to

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Hertzberg" <s_hertzberg at hotmail.com>
To: <ansteorra-rapier at ansteorra.org>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2001 4:11 PM
Subject: Re: [Ansteorra-rapier] Advisory Roll

> Chuckling...no offense taken, Hawkins.  Looking back, yeah I cam
> kinda harsh.  My appologies, it has been a long week...;).  I was
not trying
> to tell Walter that his opinion had no merit, if anything, I was
trying to
> show him that it DOES matter very much what he, or anyone else

Yes, I agree with that aspect of what you were saying to him.  His
opinion does very much matter.  In my opinion, it matters as much as
mine does.  Knowing Walter Robin, his opinion even matters to me quite
a bit.  That just wasn't the part of your post I chose to address,
because I couldn't have argued against you and me too posts aren't my
cup of tea : )

> I will respond below...
> >On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 14:13:39 -0500
> >  "Sean Hertzberg" <s_hertzberg at hotmail.com> wrote:
> > >

> >
> >Ummmm.... perhaps.  Yet if a million people believe one
> >thing and I believe another - I'm going to vote my
> >conscience and not the popular vote.
> Agreed.  What is right is right, no matter what everyone else
beleives.  But
> you cannot make the call in a vacuum.  You have to take into account
> others are saying, doing, thinking.  If, after that, you still feel
that you
> are correct in how you are going to act, then I would hope that you
> vote as you felt was right.  I wish MORE of the Circle did that.

That's true, we do have to take into account what the rest of the
Ansteorran rapier community is thinking.  I don't think it's every
likely that we would become so isolated that we did not take others
opinions into account.  I think it happens more naturally - if I don't
know someone and Avery said something about them to me, it would begin
to color my thinking.  If I heard the same thing from Alessandro,
Tristan, Simone, etc... then it would probably color my thinking quite
a bit.  Unless I had some strong opinion about that unknown somebody
formed on my own, I would probably accept what those people, all of
whom I trust, tell me.  I don't have to think about that, I just do it

I think that's why informal circles and such aren't neccessary.
Anyone can gain standing and influence with me, by earning it.  If Joe
Shmoe tells me his opinion in an informal circle, I'll probably pay it
some small amount of attention.  If however, Joe has impressed me
through being around a lot, fighting well, and being a "right thinking
dude" (is that Alden's?), I'll probably take his opinion into account
much greater.  Take that far enough and I think that's why most people
eventually are brought into the circle, they've gained the respect and
attention of enough people, both inside and outside that they're
already an influence before they're formally brought in.  Eventually
it's just formalized, that's all.

> > >
> > > Don't forget, officially, the WS Circle has NOTHING to to
> > > do with the
> > > marshallate anymore.  There are WS in the Marshallate,
> > > but the Circle does
> > > NOT make or enforce the rules.  Look at the Regional
> > > Rapier marshals...I
> > > think only one of the 5 is a WS, the other 4 are cadets.
> > > I am running the
> > > list for Queens, and I am not a WS.
> >
> >Officially it doesn't.  What exactly does that mean, though?
> >Does it mean we are out of line if we discuss marshallate
> >issues in a circle?  : )
> Chuckling again...you know what I mean.  There is a misconception
that the
> marshallate in Ansteorra and the WS are one and the same, and they
are not.
> Haven't been for a while now.  Yes, the WS are the leaders, but they
are not
> the Marshallate.

I know what you were getting at and I agree with you.  The marshallate
and the WS are separate.  We do need to always mention that when it
even seems confused, because we don't need that confusion hurting
marshals when people defer more to the scarf than they do to the
offical marshallate hierarchy.  The two need to be kept a certain
amount separate, but they'll never be completely separate, nor should
they be.  If we, as knowledgeable people, make a recommendation to
Ansgar, I imagine he will listen.  If he then acts on that without
consulting his marshals, it would cut you out of the loop to some
extent since you couldn't be in the circle to discuss it.  He wouldn't
do that, though, he'd most likely run it through the marshallate
before doing much with it.

> Looking at what I wrote...shaking my head at myself...
> Ok, I was a little harsh.  My appologies again.  But the basic idea
is the
> same.  I agree that most will be polite to someone who they do not
know and
> will give someone the bennefit of the doubt...but I also know that
> have been several WS that have been made that have worked their
> off and STILL they have the "yeah, but Queen whats her name just
gave him
> the scarf, he never EARNED it" attatched to them, even years later.
I know
> of one that did get a WS under controversial circumstances, who is
one of
> what I would consider the BEST WS we have, and he says he feels like
he has
> to go out and re-earn the Scarf EVERY day, even though he has been
> his butt for years.  I feel it is NOT fair to the candidate to have
> happen, as well as to the Circle.

I completely agree.  It's not fair to a candidate to make him when
most are against it.  But nothing is black and white and sometimes a
loud minority can make a huge stink.  If Joe Shmoe is inducted into
the circle on a positive vote, the community for the most part had
been waiting for him to get it, but a small group of very active
cadets thinks he's just some Queen's cabana boy, that small group can
raise a big enough stink that it might appear to many (especially many
in the same area as the little clique of pissed off cadets) that Joe
wasn't well liked, wasn't ready, whatever.  It wouldn't make it true,
but it might seem true.  This isn't right.  If Joe really deserved it,
he'll shake off the stink.  It might be hard and take a lot of effort
that might be spent elsewhere though.

BTW, I'm not commenting on any real world happening, I've heard rumors
of some cadet rebellion, but I really wasn't aware of it at the time,
either through location or inactivity.

> I will argue from the point that information gets out.  People will
> that there were..."circumstances" behind someone getting an award.
They may
> not know the details, but they will know something is fishy...
> This is the SCA, and rumors move faster than anything else,
remember?  ;)

Yes, they do.  This is often unfortunate.  I'm very much a Heinlein
fan and I just don't respect the vast popular opinion that expresses
itself through rumor and grumblings.  I try to take it into account,
but I don't respect it.  If someone has something to say about
someone, they should do it by just saying it to someone in a position
to hear it.

> >
> >I think the respect is more valuable than the scarf - but I
> >also believe there is a positive correlation between the
> >two.
> There can also be a negative relationship as well...

No, I mean a postive correlation, as in the two sets "people
especially deserving of respect in the rapier community" and "people
who were recognized as a WSA" overlapping more often than they
specifically exclude one another.  A negative correlation might be
"SCA fencers who live in the North" and "SCA fencers who prefer foils
to schlagers"  : )  : )  : )

> > >
> > > Avery Shaw
> > > Aubrey's
> > > Coastal Regional Rapier Marshal
> > > Stargate
> >
> >Hawkins
> >Northern Regional Rapier Marshal
> >Allyson's : )
> Yes you are Allyson's Don...but you were Navarre's cadet, and when
you were
> "just a cadet", your oppinion stil mattered.  And so does everyone
> Some just get heard more clearly and more often.
> Avery (good arguement *grin*)

Just to clarify my intent, I did not emphasize Allyson's awarding me
my WS in order to take advantage of that automatic respect it
might/might not carry.  I did it because:  1.  I'm very proud of
Allyson in particular, and 2.  It was kind of a neat parallel.  I
don't think you were implying otherwise, I'm just allergic to the
potential for misusing an award that way and I don't want people to
think that was my aim.

I'm also very proud of being Navarre's cadet, I could have used it
just as well probably.

Anyway, I also enjoy our talks.... it's been awhile since we stayed up
'til 4:00 a.m.


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